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We talk many times with people who claim that they've been to other planets.

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We talk to a man by the name of the mystic barber, the mystical tonsorial artist from

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Brooklyn, who claims he can astrally project himself to the moon and back at will.

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And we talk to people who've been to Mars and to Venus, at least this is the story that

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they've told us.

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But when a man like Ivan Sanderson, the nozoologist, is going to sit in front of these microphones

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for some five and a half hours and tell us that there may be little people arriving on

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this planet from other planets, then I begin to wonder, maybe there's something to it.

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Isabelle Davis is with us this morning.

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Miss Davis has spent a considerable amount of time investigating the subject that we're

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going to discuss this morning.

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Han Stefan Sanderson, editorial director of Fantastic Universe is with us.

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The Sanderson has an article that was written by Ivan Sanderson.

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It will appear in which edition?

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It will appear in the issue on the month of next week.

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This was a bad book, wasn't it?

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We should have saved it.

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What will be the date now?

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In the March issue.

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March issue.

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On the stand.

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That's right.

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It'll be on the stand.

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It's in the state of Detroit, in November.

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15th and 11th?

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Yeah.

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You can see he is not the circulation manager.

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He's the editor.

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He expects to sell extra copies to people who might get the wrong issue first time to

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get the second one later.

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Very clever.

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You get paid too, you know, from that company.

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I know.

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Don't tell him how much.

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Don't tell him how much.

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Let's see, Delray and Davis, the author of the book entitled Rockets Through Space, published

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by Winston and Ben Isk with the cybernetician.

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I think that you'll be with us right through the 5.30 once we get this rolling.

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I've been, about three or four weeks ago, you sent me a letter and in the letter you

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put in quotes a little green man story.

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You honestly think that there's a possibility of people landing on this planet from other

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planets?

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Is this possible?

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Let's forget about the green part or the orchid part or whatever color they may be.

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Is this possible, Adam?

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Well, I will only answer that, John, if I may say first of all that they are little

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some.

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They're not green and they're not men.

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Apart from that, could there be life forms or with intelligence or without intelligence

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that have come to this Earth may still be coming?

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I say yes.

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I think we have every evidence for it.

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What was that last day?

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We have every necessary evidence for that fact.

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Who had this evidence?

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We have it right in our scientific publications today to be drawn from all different sources.

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I'm not talking, look, may I pontificate for a moment and make a little speech?

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The first one will be directed to Lester Del Rey, he's my very dear friend.

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He's going to sit here tonight and say I don't believe anything.

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There will be no further discussion.

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I believe many things.

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I don't necessarily believe any of this.

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Well, if you're going to say that we don't get anywhere but as to John.

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You can't convince me if I don't believe anything.

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I'm not arguing.

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If you're going to sit down at the beginning and say I'm not going to believe anything

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about this.

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I say so.

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I believe many things.

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It's only a one, let's say, and a half.

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This time you've got to be logical.

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And if I say that.

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Will you define that word?

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Logical.

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If I say it, we'll define it.

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I don't want to think, dear boy.

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Oh.

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And listen to what I'm saying.

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Don't use logic, but think.

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Right.

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Listen to what I'm saying.

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Now listen to what I'm saying.

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I said if you're going to sit here all night and say I never believed any of this and I'm

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not going to believe any of it.

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In other words, you're not going to listen to the evidence and discuss it.

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Not argue about it, but discuss it.

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If you're going to get off on the tangents, I'm afraid we won't get anything interesting

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out of it.

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But this stuff is here, long John.

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And I was addressing remarks to you.

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The so-called evidence, or the actual evidence, is in print already and not from a lot of

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idiot crap-pots who say they've been to the moon.

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And I'm sorry that I don't dig any of that stuff at all.

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And it's not a complete rubbish.

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They don't have any evidence of any kind.

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If they have, I have yet to see it.

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I'm not talking about that.

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I'm talking about stuff that's in print, mostly in well-recognized, established, orthodox,

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scientific journals, and such.

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In addition to that, there is an awful lot of stuff, facts, recorded in this book that

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you heard in front of you.

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I'm talking about the same sources in the straight-line theory by M. M. E. Schell, which

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has been translated by Isabel Davies and Lex Mather.

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We'll go into that later.

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But I think that there is something to be discussed here if we're not going to be all

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together prestigious about it.

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In other words, let's be serious about the subject and let's idiotic about ourselves

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as we can, all right?

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Good.

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My pontifications are now over, dear boy.

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Thank you.

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And I am your guest.

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What happened to you all of a sudden?

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What happened to me?

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Nothing has been said.

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I'm in your ready.

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The presupposition, although perhaps not intended here, is that a certain measure of belief is

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a desirable thing.

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I maintain that the presupposition for any scientific discussion is that no belief shall

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be involved once you look at the evidence, but belief does not enter into it.

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The burden of the proof lies upon the man who puts up the theory.

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It is up to him to prove it to the satisfaction of all others.

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This may be more than a lifetime job, but it is still his burden.

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It is not my belief.

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Yeah, but you're already muddling the issue.

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I did not say that.

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I said that if you're going to sit here and say, I won't believe, it's not worth discussing.

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I did not say that.

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You put the words in my mouth.

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I did.

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Intentionally.

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I asked about it.

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Oh, and I quickly understood the beginning.

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Let's talk with Isabelle Davis for a moment.

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Isabelle, you've been in the party line, I think, two or three times.

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Yes, I have, darling.

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I've been here, I think, about two and a half times before.

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I think the half time was you arrived about 2.30 in the morning with Kate.

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Oh, I wish it had been me, but I must have been some of the lady because I...

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He came here from a party, Lex Meadowman and Ted Blocher.

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I came from a party, but if I bought Kate, it wasn't really a big enough one for me to remember it.

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No, it wasn't.

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One complaint.

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Oh, well, you know, I thought of bringing you Kate tonight, but I just didn't have time to make it.

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Fine.

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Now, I want to ask you this question.

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I never realized until...

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Well, I don't know who it was that told me, but I know somebody connected with CSI, which is civilian sorcerer intelligence.

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I have been told that you, Isabel Davis, Lex Meadowman and Ted Blocher, believe in the Little Green Man theory.

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Is that true?

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No, with reservations.

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I think I'd better say yes and no in relation to that.

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Not Little Green Man, because as I pointed out in his article, they really are not green.

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I don't think there's a single Little Green Man.

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There's one that I think was dressed in green.

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That's a little brush-cheap man, but none of his color is really green.

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And when the expression came from, we had really looked for it.

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We tried to find what case it was that did rise to that expression.

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And I think the only reason why it occurred is because of the association with elves and pixies and so forth.

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And also it sounds much sillier if anyone wants to laugh at it.

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It sounds much sillier to talk about Little Green Man than just about Little Men.

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I don't want to commit anyone to any belief except myself.

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I will say this, that we feel there are two things we have come...

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Two conclusions we've come to from studying a number of these cases.

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And the first thing is that they are entirely different.

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This is a very important point and one that I hope that we'll be able to discuss a little further.

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These Little Men cases are different in almost every respect from the contact cases.

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They should not be confused with them because I can point out 15 or 20 ways in which they are totally the opposite of those cases.

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The other thing is that in at least, let's say four or five cases where we have interviewed the witnesses in these sightings, these encounters, I won't call them contacts,

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we have discovered that it is very difficult to brush off these stories either as hoax or hallucinations.

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There seems to be something there.

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And in that, I personally believe that there have been Little Men landed from trying to sources, but I would certainly not want to commit.

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Either of my colleagues, even my close colleagues, who could blow to Mr. Mebbin to affirm belief in that, but I will go out on them and say that I believe it.

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Where are these sources coming from?

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Well, that's another very interesting question.

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There are two possibilities.

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Because we are the types of Little Men that have been reported very considerably, all the way from the little hairy men with glowing eyes, thank you,

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recorded from Venezuela in November and December of 1954.

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There seemed to be a rather general type down there.

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Two silver, all over silver, aluminum, sort of aluminum creatures that were reported in Kentucky in August of 1955.

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There's a good deal of variation, except for the fact that almost all of the cases, they are under, they are less than human size, smaller.

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Now, how do we explain this divergence?

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One theory is, of course, one speculation can be that they come from a great variety of different countries, out of space, other planets, whatever.

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When someone suggested, I think it was Len Stingfield of Cleveland, who's like that, quite long enough, Len Stingfield, that possible they come from...

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Len's legs back long enough?

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I think, look, we haven't got picture radio here, but during the time that Isabel has been telling us about the little men,

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Ivan went over to a large leather case that he brought with him, and he unzipped it and he brought out a cut out, a cardboard model, I guess,

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of one of these aluminum collared men.

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Not men, things, or things, alright?

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Do you know that?

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That's the Kelly, Kentucky...

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Yeah, man, this is a compass that made by the United States Army and Air Force, and all the people who story, having 18, a number, one sec...

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Oh, no, not that, look, I don't...

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Eight adults and three children.

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Eight adults and three children, and, sorry, I hand in front of the mic.

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And this is a compass that after they had been sat down by pretty good artists and said, well, what, I mean, after all, you all have these stories,

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and each one was taken separately, and said, what do you think it was like?

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Well, some could sketch a little, some could draw, others couldn't, so the artists would draw a bit and say, was it like that?

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And they'd say, no, that year was longer, all that, we didn't see the mouth and so on.

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This is a compass that came out of the whole thing.

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This was made by Lex from the original drawing, which, Stefan, I think, pairs very nice.

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Yeah, yeah, we get one there.

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Made up to the size that all the people said, to say, if it seemed to be places to what they want.

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But I thought it might help, you know, the discussion here, talking about aluminum and little man and...

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So you'd all have an idea, because this whole thing is so completely off the center, you know, so far out, and we've all got used to talking about the statement.

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No, it seemed to be the same as before.

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Let me get back to Isabelle Davis for a moment.

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I just wanted to finish with one very interesting suggestion that has been made as to why there's this great variety of these little creatures, see.

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Possibly they all come from one planet or world, but they represent different types of the intelligent inhabitants in the same way that we have a great variety on this planet of dogs.

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Now, you can go all the way in dogs, and the creatures in the pods are the great dame, and they shoot dogs.

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And they hardly look like the same species, all apologies to you, Ivan.

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But there is a tremendous difference.

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It's probably a deal more different from a different species of dogs than there is among different species of people.

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Now, as on this planet, they produce creatures that are aluminum colored.

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Some of them, some of them are hairy, and some of them are all over grey rubbery looking.

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This would account, particularly on a speculated basis, of course, it would account for the rather large variety of creatures that have been reported.

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That's all I can say about where they come from.

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I certainly don't know because this is one of the essentials of these cases, and that is there's no communication.

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These little creatures never make a statement about themselves or their homes.

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Can they go through the hell of these methods of communication?

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In very, very few cases there have been sounds reported.

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Sounds?

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Sounds, yes.

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But nothing that is really intelligible.

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There's one very interesting case in Italy where the little man said something that he reported as barn-froze-unch.

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And the suggestion has been made that he may have been trying to talk to them.

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Barum, uh, chelgen, the-unch.

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Why do you follow us?

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There's something about that, of course, this again is I must emphasize speculation.

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But in not many cases they say nothing.

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Most cases I would say.

232
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In the Michel book since I think there are only four cases where there's any sound reported from the creatures themselves.

233
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:48,600
Four out of the 25 cases that he described in Europe in the fall of 1954.

234
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:57,600
Michel, you say that these little creatures, according to the reports that you have, that they've arrived in flying saucers.

235
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:58,600
Is that right?

236
00:14:58,600 --> 00:14:59,600
That is true.

237
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:11,600
In all but a handful of cases, the saucer is seen and in a number of these cases the saucer is hovering around the ground and the little creatures jump back into it or out of it and it is seen.

238
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,600
There are two cases where the object itself was not seen.

239
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:23,600
Uh, Isabel, has anybody had the opportunity of getting into the saucer?

240
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,600
You know, the people who've been contacted by these people.

241
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:36,600
There was one young man, one of the youngest villain cases, one of the little men came up and grabbed him and tried to take him into the saucer, lift him in.

242
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:47,600
And his companion, who was with him, came up and struck the little man with a rifle that the boys had been mad at hunting with and beat him off.

243
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,600
And he relinquished the boy and also I believe a car came along with his headlights.

244
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,600
It was about two o'clock in the morning.

245
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,600
So he let him go.

246
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,600
But they apparently were going to take him into the saucer.

247
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:08,600
But this happened about a week or so after a case with similar little creatures where one of two young men who saw them tried to grab one of the little creatures and put them in his meat chuck.

248
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,600
So maybe it was retaliation on their part.

249
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,600
I don't know.

250
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,600
We don't know even though they're the same group.

251
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,600
But in this case they tried to get the boy into the saucer.

252
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,600
He definitely did not want to do it.

253
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,600
Ivan, do you want to add something?

254
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,600
I'm excited to find out.

255
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,600
Isabel, you keep on saying flying in saucers.

256
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,600
I wish we could cut that word out.

257
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,600
I think Isabel agrees with me.

258
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,600
Well, I would disagree with you.

259
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:35,600
And I'll tell you why.

260
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,600
You can go over it in that saucer shape.

261
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,600
No, no.

262
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:39,600
I don't say that at all.

263
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,600
I know you prefer you, folks.

264
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:42,600
Well, look, saucer is one shape.

265
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,600
It's an oblate spheroid, right?

266
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:50,600
But the reports in Michel's book, quite apart from the serious-minded reports that we have in our trials,

267
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,600
cover an infinity of different shapes and sizes.

268
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,600
And some of these things may be crazy physical.

269
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:56,600
Some may be para-physical.

270
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,600
Some may be absolutely physical.

271
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,600
I mean, I think if we say saucers and say yes,

272
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,600
then everybody thinks, oh, ha, ha, flying saucers.

273
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,600
And they think immediately of saucer.

274
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,600
Saucer is the only shape we've never had, John.

275
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,600
We've had a thing that looks like one saucer inverted on top of another.

276
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,600
We've had this shape things reported.

277
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,600
And these are all reports, don't forget, flying this way with a dome up.

278
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,600
But the saucer is not.

279
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,600
It's the most aggravating term in history.

280
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,600
I just say that according to the book that we're talking about this morning,

281
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,600
written by Michel, translated by Isabelle Davis and Lex Nebbon,

282
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,600
the title of it is Flying a Star.

283
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,600
I know, but the publishers are-

284
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,600
And I think that the majority of people listening to the party line,

285
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,600
those that may accidentally tune in about one or one thirty in the morning,

286
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,600
if we are not using the term flying saucers,

287
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,600
they may not be familiar with the subject that we're discussing.

288
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,600
Yes, I know it's a little stuffy, but to us,

289
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,600
to say each time I identify the object in the air,

290
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,600
they're not flying, incidentally, anyhow.

291
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,600
But if we could constantly plug the fact that when we use the word flying saucer,

292
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,600
we're using it just like we use the word dinosaur.

293
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,600
There never was such a thing as a dinosaur.

294
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,600
There is no, for instance, there's no such group of reptiles,

295
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,600
extinct or otherwise, of the dinosauria.

296
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,600
Dinosaur means terrible reptile, and it is used as a sort of general term

297
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,600
for any large or even some small reptiles which are extinct,

298
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,600
or allegedly extinct, of usually of three certain groups.

299
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,600
Now, the major point that I try to make all the time is that this whole business of UFOs

300
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,600
is an enormously complex one.

301
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,600
And people are running around including the United States Air Force

302
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,600
thinking they're going to catch one and then we'll have the whole problem solved.

303
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,600
I have used this old stimuli over and over again.

304
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,600
It's like saying there's one kind of animal only in the North Atlantic.

305
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,600
There are everything from submarines to grains of sand.

306
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,600
There are all different hundreds of different kinds of fish and so on.

307
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,600
The universe is a very big place, and who will we to say that they're all saucer shaped

308
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,600
and they're all one thing?

309
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,600
If I may make that point, I want to make it very strongly

310
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,600
because then we can start discussing this in an unological way.

311
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,600
Well, may I just make this suggestion, Ivan?

312
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:10,600
I feel as the moderator that I would prefer myself to use the term flying saucer.

313
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:11,600
Okay.

314
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,600
You use UFO, alright?

315
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:14,600
Why not?

316
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:15,600
And why would they get by itself?

317
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:16,600
I'll use both, whichever you want.

318
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:17,600
No.

319
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:18,600
Lest it die right?

320
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,600
Well, I'm unhappy about the term of UFO for an entirely different reason.

321
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,600
I'm also a little unhappy about this complexity.

322
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,600
UFO is something that cannot be denied.

323
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:36,600
The moment you say unidentified flying objects, there is no possible way of saying that does not exist.

324
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,600
As long as there is a light, as long as there is a cloud, nobody has identified,

325
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,600
as long as there is a vapor wave in the air, as long as there anything,

326
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,600
it could be an unidentified flying object.

327
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,600
The word means so much and so little that to me, it gets me nowhere.

328
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,600
I cannot discuss it, I cannot conceal it, I cannot anything because if I'm unidentified,

329
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,600
there it is, whereby it is logically untenable.

330
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,600
I agree with you, but unfortunately the United States Air Force wished it on us.

331
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,600
I use another word, I've always used it, EMPs, extra mundane phenomena,

332
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:15,600
which is anything which has not already been asked for or taken over by meteorology on the one hand,

333
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,600
or by astronomy on the other.

334
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,600
And it's an awful lot of junk floating around in the sky that has not,

335
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,600
and when I say floating I mean floating, not flying.

336
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,600
And we know that, I mean nobody's ever explained ball lightning yet.

337
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,600
They're only just now getting around to explaining the aurora.

338
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:37,600
In other words, I like a comprehensive term which takes in everything which we have not yet pinned down to our satisfaction.

339
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600
It's a good term, but I don't think we're going to be able to sell it tonight.

340
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,600
I'm sure we're not, but I'm very stuck with these two terms.

341
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,600
You know, you must speak about this terminology, you must speak to the Magus of the Dictionary.

342
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,600
The term flying saucers is now in at least two dictionaries that I know of.

343
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,600
No, that's what says hot dog. What does that mean?

344
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,600
Well, I mean, the hood works on them.

345
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,600
You put a UFO or a EMP also.

346
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,600
Damn, I don't think this will ever happen to you, but supposing that you,

347
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,600
Let's say you happen to be in the city of Chicago,

348
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,600
you found that you were a little short.

349
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,600
In other words, something that happened in business wasn't too good.

350
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,600
You didn't have any money.

351
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,600
Every time I got a Chicago.

352
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:28,600
Supposing you went to work at the amphitheater out there,

353
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:35,600
you were going through the grandstand selling a meat product that was in a roll.

354
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,600
Would you run around saying,

355
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,600
French fries or would you sell hot dogs?

356
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,600
I'd run around and get your red hot.

357
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,600
And at long term, like, we'd be careful some mint sweet as stopped in an old dog skin.

358
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,600
Not something like that, you know?

359
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:50,600
You do for a nickel.

360
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:51,600
You know, you've been selling a lot.

361
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,600
And we've known each other for a long time, John.

362
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,600
John.

363
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:57,600
I'm a pitch man too.

364
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,600
It only comes through a nickel.

365
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,600
He obviously is going to be broke every time he's in Chicago.

366
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,600
I'm going to call it a day.

367
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,600
Ben, two ways to sell.

368
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,600
Well, I just get the moment.

369
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,600
I'm going to call it a day in a moment, Ben.

370
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:20,600
Well, Ivan, in reading your article, I was fascinated by certain artifacts.

371
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:30,600
You said or strongly hinted, could only be explained by the notion or the theory of extraterrestrial visitors in the history of time.

372
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:40,600
You mentioned particularly a series of forts in Scotland and Ireland that have on the top, and only on the top of their stone wall,

373
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:46,600
the stone has actually been melted to form a glassy ridge which sounds like a beautiful defensive arrangement.

374
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:54,600
And as you said, it was quite true that this is a feat that we've only been able to achieve with certain kinds of atomic heat.

375
00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:02,600
Now, the thing that, I mean, something like that is amazing to me, but also a string of questions come up immediately,

376
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:12,600
is that any technology that is capable of at will melting stone to form glass ridges, why in the world do they bother building forts?

377
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:13,600
They do think so.

378
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,600
They never said they built the forts.

379
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,600
All right, but that's exactly what I wanted to know.

380
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,600
The fewest forts of Scotland, they started in the left-backed islands,

381
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,600
which is also the west coast in northern Norway, and they run right on down, I think there's some in the Faroes.

382
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,600
They're certainly on all down the west coast of Scotland, and they craft up again in Finney Stare,

383
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,600
and I think this is one of them in outside of Las Parmas in the Canary Islands.

384
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,600
Now, I played among those forts when I was a kid.

385
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,600
There's three lovely little islands called Rum, Egg and Muff, and they say that Rum and Egg make them up.

386
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,600
They happen to belong to a division of my family at one time in the west coast of Scotland.

387
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:49,600
There's a good play out there.

388
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:56,600
Now, these forts are very crude, obviously in theolithic about time, maybe in the Mesolithic period.

389
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,600
They have simply boulders piled together, and you'd think that you could go and kick them over,

390
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:06,600
but you'd find that the Picts or the Prescott were pretty sure they were building stone walls like our New Englanders.

391
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,600
They had a way of keying in little stones with big stones.

392
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,600
They had a Norman Knight family found too.

393
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,600
Well, this is why I'm speaking of 4,000 years before the Normans existed.

394
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,600
As a matter of fact, if you're ready to be interested to know, my family actually apparently lived for about 6,000 years

395
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,600
in one of these things called Fussigarys.

396
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:29,600
We now use them for making manure, and then they used to have a whale's rib wrapped as over the top, and a peat on top.

397
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,600
But these are on the tops of the hills, and even to this day, there are certain sort of pole dance festivals,

398
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,600
things that go on at the summer solstices and so on.

399
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,600
We're very much like a stone hinge.

400
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,600
What, am I too far away from this, Mike?

401
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,600
Yeah, you are, Mike.

402
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:43,600
Sorry.

403
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,600
Now, these forts were obviously fairly crude and were made by a fairly crude culture.

404
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:55,600
But the odd thing about them is this, in a very large number of cases, or percentage of cases of all the forts that are known,

405
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:03,600
a part of this, the fort is nothing else but a huge circle of stones on a mound with the inside of the top of the hill flattened out,

406
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,600
maybe like a saucer shaped thing, I don't know if I did that all the way again.

407
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:12,600
And then there's usually a ditch around it, and then another ditch outside that, what used to be called Roman camps.

408
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,600
They're not.

409
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,600
There's a Roman-Bongal square anyhow.

410
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,600
There's palestones, there's of course no roof or anything like that today.

411
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:19,600
It's all grass inside.

412
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,600
Now, the top of the ridge of stone, always on the side facing the Atlantic,

413
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:34,600
in some cases being actually obviously melted because they're made of rhyolite and the site granites and the forest geology.

414
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:40,600
But here is this obsidian form, this glass, just exactly like volcanic glass.

415
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,600
And you can see some of these boulders are half-melted, just like this jug of water in front of us.

416
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,600
Half of it had run away and made a patch of gas, and you can rub down into the PDF and you can get out.

417
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,600
Boulders are melted, boulders are half-melted, and the whole hunks of glass.

418
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,600
They're part and parcel of a wall.

419
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,600
This is something that happened from volcanic activity from underneath, but this is on the top of the wall,

420
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:06,600
and nearly always the most huge portion is exactly about 45 degrees angle up into the sky, pointing out into the Atlantic.

421
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,600
You couldn't have been assembled afterwards.

422
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,600
You couldn't because it's a solid fuse.

423
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:12,600
It's a fuse together.

424
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,600
Now, the only theory that I've ever heard of, and I suppose as usual we go back to old Charlie Fort,

425
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:23,600
he just theorized out on a limb, just couldn't think of anything, he just had his imagination run wild.

426
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:30,600
He said these things were obviously, this fusing was not done by the people who made the fort, somebody else must have done it.

427
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:37,600
Who was floating around in realistic times who could direct heat down from the sky hot enough to melt it?

428
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:43,600
Alright, then everybody's a natural theory, isn't our good friend Leicester over here being a professional skeptic would say,

429
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,600
well, then if it's a natural phenomenon, it must have been a bolt of lightning.

430
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,600
How funny did bolts of lightning happen to hit only forts, straight over about 2,000 miles?

431
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:52,600
Why?

432
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,600
It was the fort's the highest object in the territory?

433
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:56,600
Not always.

434
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:03,600
The fort was put on the highest hill that they could find in an area, but I mean, our princess on run egg and muck, this is on egg, EIGG.

435
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,600
And muck is much higher.

436
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,600
It just happened to us, that was the inhabited one, and they put it up there.

437
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:16,600
But if the fort was hit on one hill, why wasn't the top of the hill itself, which was also made of granite, hit next door at least once?

438
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:26,600
But the only fused, rhyolite and the sites, porphyry and granite, and a couple of others, well-known types of rocks that are found fused in that whole area,

439
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,600
are not just natural boulders lying around or erratics, they're always in the building.

440
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:37,600
They project upwards, they are compared to the surrounding territory, small in diameter, I gather.

441
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:46,600
Another theory of a lightning rod is that lightning will strike the highest object and the most pointed object, the most nearly pointed object.

442
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:59,600
Now, I don't know a thing about these things, therefore I had no previous theory about them, but lightning will tend to strike a projected pointed affair.

443
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,600
It doesn't have to be a sharp point, it has to be a point relative to anything else around, right?

444
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,600
There's something very interesting there, you've got brought up a very good point, but I've never heard of, or never thought of before, or never thought of it.

445
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:22,600
Supposing that these neolithic persons were just at the Copper Age, we know that stone axes of a certain kind, i.e. the gavels we still have it,

446
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:30,600
which was the stone axe of Thor, as opposed to the Votan Larch, you know, the Norse, the stone axe became a lid symbol,

447
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:36,600
and a symbol amongst the priesthoods in pagan times of authority.

448
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:43,600
Now, when they got metal, they used to repeat in metal the form of the original stone axe.

449
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:50,600
Now, these people may have had copper, and your theory, or your thought at the moment, might be that the people who used these temples,

450
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:58,600
they probably were temples, places of worship, they may have erected some type of copper device, sticking up like a spar or something,

451
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:07,600
and that over several hundreds, if not thousands of years, would tend to attract boats of lightning through forts rather than to just hills

452
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,600
that didn't have a spike of copper standing up.

453
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,600
It might, I hate to say so without knowing a lot more about it, but it's a possibility.

454
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:21,600
One thing that disturbs me about the lightning theory is that I've seen lightning strike colder heats and all the rest of it.

455
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,600
The distinct pattern that comes out, you can actually see the course of lightning through the rock,

456
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,600
and it shatters the rock, and apparently these things are not shattered, they're smoothly fused over.

457
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:32,600
Exactly.

458
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,600
All the way around the top.

459
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:34,600
All the way around the top.

460
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,600
All the way around, most of the money go around about one third of the entire circle.

461
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,600
Towards the Atlantic?

462
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:41,600
Always towards the Atlantic.

463
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,600
Is that they were expecting invaders?

464
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:44,600
No, exactly.

465
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,600
Some invader had swept down the coast, taking a pot shot at each one of the forts of the DC,

466
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,600
a succession going from the north to the south, or south to the north,

467
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:57,600
because the angle, you can't tell them, after these things are 2000, 3000 BC, or 5000 years ago,

468
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,600
and a lot of changes have taken place, even the whole sea level has gone up and down around there,

469
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,600
but that's another subject.

470
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,600
But it would appear that on the whole, that these things have been shot at from the sky,

471
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,600
from about 45 degrees up, from over the Atlantic.

472
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,600
It doesn't look as if it's anything that had happened from the ground.

473
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,600
Well, I had a wrong interpretation.

474
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,600
I read your article, I'd gotten the idea, you were implying that this was,

475
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:31,600
and it sounded like a beautiful defensive arrangement to have the bobers on the top of a fort having glassed edges.

476
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,600
Oh no, you can kick them and you can shadow the grass, but...

477
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:43,600
Well, now the idea of things to be disinflicted upon the fort by some sort of invading force.

478
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,600
I think that having under their command such a fantastic weapon of a, say, a heat ray,

479
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,600
or something like that, able to melt rocks.

480
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,600
Just to keep this whole discussion logical, and to me it's very exciting, I don't know if it's to other people,

481
00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:01,600
but we can't even keep this logical, if I don't make a few bucks, we won't even have a problem.

482
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:07,600
Let me take just a moment to talk about one of our benefactors, the Hudson Bydman.

483
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,600
The writer of the book, The Edition, the noted zoologist, Lester Del Ray,

484
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,600
authored the book entitled Rockets Through Space, published by Winston,

485
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,600
Hans Steppen Souterson, the editorial director of Fantastic Universe,

486
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:29,600
and Ben Hisk with the brash young cybernetician from Philadelphia.

487
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,600
From where?

488
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:39,600
I think that I interrupted you before Ivan to take care of a little bit, if you want to pick it up.

489
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,600
Here's John, I was just saying to Ben that if we could interject here another subject,

490
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:51,600
which is then what we were talking about, and also this little folks thing that we started off with,

491
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:57,600
and that is this, I don't know if you read my article, you get a far as far as the part about the Pittery-Rias maps.

492
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,600
Now we'll have to...

493
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,600
I also thought it was amazing.

494
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,600
Because I'm adding, in view of the people I think we'll discuss it, don't you?

495
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,600
I mean after all, one of the senior people of the US Hydrographic Office,

496
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,600
now the Bureau of Standards are now involved in this.

497
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,600
I hope one day John will, Captain Mallory, he's an older gentleman,

498
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,600
I hope he'll be able to come to the program, and I hope he'll agree to do so,

499
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,600
because it's quite fabulous for that man, it's done.

500
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,600
You say he's an engineer, Ivan, do you think, can you tell me how he's an engineer?

501
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,600
Yes, he was a rich, he was one of the men, his company, his father's company,

502
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,600
built most of the very large number of the big railway bridges around about New York and elsewhere.

503
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,600
He's quite famous in that field.

504
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,600
I am a big man with that background, you know, it's a little about metallurgy.

505
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,600
Well, I don't know anything about that, I don't know anything about metallurgy at all.

506
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,600
You don't think they can't either for some of your bookings, if they're much correct?

507
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,600
What was the article?

508
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:54,600
I looked through the article, and I, actually, of course, on the maps, and there are period-race things,

509
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,600
that there's almost nothing that I could find to sink my teeth in.

510
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,600
The main thing to do when you're looking at anything, is to look for the facts first that you can prove or disprove.

511
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,600
I mean, that seems fairly logical to me.

512
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:11,600
And you, necessarily, automatically, figure on the accuracy of the rest, it isn't fair,

513
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,600
but nevertheless you have to, very often, it's given to a lot of things.

514
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:21,600
You judge the accuracy of other things, or the accuracy of the things you can determine, particularly when some things cannot be determined.

515
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,600
One statement that impressed me in there was the statement,

516
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,600
another discovery of Dr. Mallory, I think that is a typo, you mean Mr. Mallory didn't just, Captain Mallory.

517
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:37,600
Another discovery of Captain Mallory, which has now been seconded by both the Smithsonian Institute and the US Euro standards who ran the test,

518
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:47,600
namely that some people, 7,000 years ago, were also making steels in a form of alloys that require 9,000 degrees sondegrade for their manufacturers.

519
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,600
Well, that is absolutely ridiculous, that is completely and totally ridiculous.

520
00:33:51,600 --> 00:34:04,600
Looking down the list of thousands of metals, I find that iron boils at 3,000 degrees sondegrade, 3,000, not 9,000.

521
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,600
It would go at 9,000.

522
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,600
Even transporting to Fahrenheit is only 5,430 degrees.

523
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:19,600
Now you do not alloy with a metal in its gaseous state, you alloy it with it in its molten state.

524
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:26,600
Well, tungsten on the other hand, which has about the highest melting point of any thing we use in alloying,

525
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,600
melts at 3,370 degrees sondegrade.

526
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:37,600
That is the reason that nobody successfully, by the normal methods, has been able to alloy tungsten and steel.

527
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,600
They have to use it by powder metallurgy, which of course requires comparatively low temperature and pressure.

528
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,600
Oh.

529
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:53,600
So, when you say that they have determined that these alloys required 9,000 degrees sondegrade for their manufacture,

530
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,600
in the first place, they could not have been manufactured that way.

531
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,600
In the second place, they certainly could not have made any such determination.

532
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:09,600
And there is something very rotten in Denmark about that and about the engineer who uses that in his thinking.

533
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:15,600
I am a little bit dubious of a man who can so casually throw out a figure such as that,

534
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,600
and then expect it to swallow anything as fantastic as the period race maps.

535
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,600
Alright, let's start with. I don't know anything about metallurgy.

536
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,600
I do know about something about the boiling points of metal.

537
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,600
Let's take that one later.

538
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,600
But Captain Mallory told me this sitting in my apartment.

539
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:48,600
Now, he has one book out already, Pep Steffan from the Lost America, which is on the old ancient Arnor pits and furnaces all over this country.

540
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,600
At first, he was poo food when he brought that out. That's nothing. It's a bar gown and so on.

541
00:35:53,600 --> 00:36:00,600
However, it was Dr. Breesmeister of the American Geographical Society who first drew my attention to his works.

542
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,600
He's a seeding cartographer at the American Geographic, not the National Geographic.

543
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,600
And he, as I say, drew my attention to this gentleman's works.

544
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,600
Now, he has published that. Then he has a book merely completed on the maps.

545
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:19,600
Because he got particularly interested in the early history of the pre-American history of America,

546
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,600
if there was such or anyhow, pre-Columbian and pre-North.

547
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:36,600
And he did a lot of work on the coastline and he found that certain places where the coast had changed according to what maps there were left by the North in Iceland and certain other maps.

548
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:48,600
And Dr. Breesmeister told me that modern survey, places like Newfoundland and so on, has point by point brought to light old beaches and so on,

549
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,600
which can be pretty well dated. In fact, they are very accurately dated now.

550
00:36:52,600 --> 00:37:00,600
And some with artifacts and taboos, including wooden stuff, they've got radio carbon fix on that,

551
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:10,600
which confirmed Mallory's theories, not actually theories, but his maps of where the sea edge should have been 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 years ago.

552
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:19,600
That's one thing. That began to make a lot of people think that stuff which Mallory had been working on for many years and had written up before carbon dating came in,

553
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:28,600
had something to it and would have to be looked into. Then the period rise maps came up and we have this whole business which is in the article you read there.

554
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:35,600
And he is now working on another book which is coming up and I repeated in there merely the statement that he made in front of Charles Halfgood,

555
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:42,600
Stan Rao and myself and a couple of other people in my apartment. I asked him at the time, I said, why 9,000 degrees centigrade?

556
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,600
It's a terrific heat. Don't you mean Fahrenheit? He said no and he brought up the very points that you brought up.

557
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:55,600
He said there are certain alloys which we simply cannot put together. They would have to be mixed in a gaseous form.

558
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:05,600
And what is this, and I'm right out of my field, what is this pinch effect thing that the Russians have developed and we now have Zeta in England which is getting tremendous heat.

559
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,600
He didn't form alloys that way.

560
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:15,600
No, no, I didn't mean that. I'm coming to it. But there is a way of increasing, we can get, in other words, we can get heats.

561
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,600
We can get elements, is it? Yes, elements. We can get heat.

562
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,600
Up to a heat much beyond their boiling point is to retain them in a gaseous form.

563
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,600
Yes, provided that we're using something very simple such as hydrogen.

564
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:35,600
You put a little bit of iron in there though and the cooling effect is so terrific that the heat immediately vanishes.

565
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:36,600
What happens in the sun then?

566
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:42,600
The temperature of the sun at the surface and incidentally we are not even dealing with gases at most of the sun.

567
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,600
We are dealing with these broken parts of atoms.

568
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,600
But at the surface of the sun the temperature is only 6,000 degrees, I agree.

569
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:58,600
All right, now go down into the center of the sun. Where is the arm chain, the whole build up of the elements, what is it named?

570
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,600
It's fairly well down towards the center of the sun apparently. That's the term...

571
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,600
18 degrees K, absolutely, right?

572
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:09,600
18 million degrees, but you are not dealing with normal atoms and you are not dealing with any conceivable pressure.

573
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:15,600
The pressure must be so terrific that it will squeeze the nuclei of atoms together just by the pressure.

574
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:28,600
Do you not think it's possible that a technology not too considerably more advanced than ours might at this time or some past time or sometime in the future

575
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:42,600
be able to make two alloy metals which we cannot get alloyed today by using perhaps very great temperatures instead of having to go through breaking them up into their free irons and sticking them back together.

576
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,600
It might be the same.

577
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,600
Just remember that gases do not dissolve each other in the same way that metals do then.

578
00:39:48,600 --> 00:40:00,600
When you clue them down below their boiling point, you will find that your steel will plate out long after other elements have already plated out and you will still not achieve an alloy from this.

579
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,600
Right, here on this earth at this time, but what about the middle of a dwarf star?

580
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:12,600
Well, if you want to say that they brought the middle of a dwarf star over and put it above the Atlantic Ocean somewhere, then I will say that the thing is even more ridiculous.

581
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:19,600
No, his simple suggestion is here are types of metals which the U.S. Bureau of Standards has got really stuck on.

582
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:25,600
This is something which has been lying in the Smithsonian as an artifact marked early colonial.

583
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:31,600
And they looked at these things and they said, well, this is, we can't do these things. They must be mixtures. They can't be alloys at all.

584
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:38,600
And they decided they were, according to what Mallory told me, and I am not a metallurgist and I have not run the test myself, but I'm simply repeating.

585
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,600
What kind of steel were they, Ireland? You said they were steel.

586
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:48,600
They are steel, if I remember are right. I have them in there, molybdenum, cadmium, tungsten and some...

587
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,600
You didn't have them, but those are the ones?

588
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:51,600
I think it was those.

589
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,600
Well, those are the ones I listed as I ascertained.

590
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,600
Well, the artifact's actual things, the artifact's...

591
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:06,600
Let me explain. The Smithsonian has the most wonderful collection of North American artifacts of all kinds, all kinds of stone age implements from the Amerindians.

592
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,600
Why don't you go run down on the Perry Reeds maps too? I think a little bit of interest would be in that.

593
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,600
I agree with you then. I think you should do that.

594
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:20,600
If I may. You correct me, Stefan, if I'm wrong, then I'm going to mind the sills, you know.

595
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:35,600
A Turkish naval officer, a matter I fenced in 30 or 40 years ago, found in some Turkish naval archives in Turkey, needless to say.

596
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,600
Some very remarkable maps.

597
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:43,600
Now, these maps were ancient, not ancient, they were very old.

598
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,600
They were alleged to be about the time of Columbus or Christopher Cologne.

599
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,600
And he got these maps and he presented them to the Library of Congress.

600
00:41:52,600 --> 00:42:00,600
And they were sent over here and they were looked at and they were found to be old maps and were greatly received and they were filed and nothing happened.

601
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,600
Well, through a very long chain of circumstances which I will not go into.

602
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,600
Captain Mallory went and got permission to look at these maps.

603
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:23,600
Now, these maps almost exactly reproduce certain maps which were in circulation and which we still have copies in the Ptolemaic period at the end of the ancient Egypt.

604
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,600
When it was the Greeks.

605
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:36,600
And those maps in turn, parts of them and considerable portions of them, were known and were mentioned earlier in ancient Egypt and in Mesopotamia.

606
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:55,600
Now, he looked at these maps and he was very interested of course in the ancient coastlines of North America and it had been, he'd heard and he'd read in certain esoteric old books that the were maps, ancient maps, that is Roman or pre-Roman, showing the coast of America.

607
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,600
Well, he didn't know them earlier.

608
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:07,600
And to these sort of these maps and then there was Eurasia, the central land mass and the Mediterranean was more or less, you could see what it was.

609
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,600
Something like the Mediterranean as it really is on this map.

610
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:17,600
And then there was sort of vague thing up where Britain and North Germany is and it sort of, and you know they had a great ocean running around Eurasia.

611
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,600
Africa was sort of locked off in the middle and was called Libya.

612
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,600
Then beyond that was the Great Ocean which is supposed to have gone round and round.

613
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,600
And in those days most people were believing that the earth was flat.

614
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:39,600
But then these maps had beyond the Great Ocean, vague, all around coastlines, very, very involved coastlines in a lot of detail but absolutely wacky.

615
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,600
And they were marked the land of the dragons and the land of the small earth of it.

616
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,600
And he thought well they must be just mythical lands.

617
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:55,600
And then he looked at it again and he thought there's an awful lot of islands round about Europe and Asia and Africa which is an island there but they were all out of place.

618
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,600
So he started in a linear direction if you follow me.

619
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:06,600
He picked a point and he told me in my apartment, one of them I picked was the present city of Marseille.

620
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600
Because that's been there for many centuries, and so on.

621
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,600
So I started from there and started going along the coast.

622
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:20,600
To my amazement I found in these Piri-Rise maps that every little indentation was there exactly as it is in fact today.

623
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,600
But they were all out of place. The thing went on wandering all over the place.

624
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,600
But as you went along the line, the coast, it was all there.

625
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:34,600
He thought well these people seem to have done a terrific job of survey of Europe and Asia, the known world.

626
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,600
Why on earth couldn't they get it down on a two dimensional map?

627
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,600
And he thought well maybe they thought the earth was flat.

628
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:47,600
And he tried various things to see if he could sort of stretch the map over simplifying one way or another to make it coincide with actuality.

629
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,600
Nothing happened. He couldn't get anything out of it.

630
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:56,600
Then he went to the US Hydrographic Office and he was working with a number three in charge, Mr. Walters, right?

631
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,600
M.I. Walters.

632
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,600
And he was deeply interested in these maps.

633
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,600
They've been lying in the Library of Congress all this time and he started looking at them.

634
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,600
And the two of them worked them together.

635
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,600
Now maps are made on what's called a grid system.

636
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:16,600
The earth is a globe and in order to get the surface of a globe onto a flat surface, you have a thickens a lot of trouble.

637
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,600
And throughout the centuries people have tried all different kinds of methods.

638
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,600
So we get all different kinds of projections.

639
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,600
Most of our common maps are on the Cato's projection.

640
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,600
But they all work out on what's called a grid system.

641
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,600
In other words you draw lines up and down and across that it is along this earth.

642
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:36,600
And they began to wonder if these people had a different grid to any grid that we use.

643
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,600
Well they filled around with this process a number of years.

644
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,600
And as his book explains, they finally found a grid which exactly fitted.

645
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:45,600
They worked backwards.

646
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:51,600
They said, well if this is here and that is there and we know it is today, what kind of grid would there be curved lines?

647
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,600
Would they be sort of length them all over sideways?

648
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:55,600
They would make them like rhomboids?

649
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:56,600
Or what?

650
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,600
They did find a grid.

651
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:06,600
Imposing that grid, that series of lines on the ancient maps, they then sort of straightened it all up to fit our modern grid.

652
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,600
And to their thunderstruck amazement they got an absolutely perfect map.

653
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:20,600
Not only of the whole of western, central and southern Asia, the whole of Europe, right away up to the north case, including Spitsbergen,

654
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:31,600
the whole of Africa, the whole east coast of north and south America, all the great Canadian Arctic islands and the entire Antarctic continent.

655
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:40,600
But what they got was doubly extraordinary because in only a very few rather minor cases, compared to the overall,

656
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,600
did the ancient maps differ from the present map of the east coast of North America.

657
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:54,600
But the very places they differed were where Malorie had already found they should have differed during the last 7,000 years.

658
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,600
That's the mud that's filled up, you follow me in such light.

659
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:00,600
5,000 years, Stephanie, alright.

660
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,600
Well I'm adding the 2000-anthocrystian era, 5,000 BC.

661
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,600
3,000 BC, right, thank you.

662
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,600
5,000 years ago from the death, right.

663
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,600
Then they came to the Antarctic and this is where they got a profound shock.

664
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:21,600
Now all this has been spoken over a certain very erudite scientific radio program,

665
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,600
been run by Georgetown University in Washington DC for a number of years.

666
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,600
And these are leading scientists.

667
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:35,600
They head on that program also, Father Linnahan, their pass, he is a seismologist from Boston,

668
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,600
Director of Western Observatory,

669
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,600
Director of Western Observatory, in Botany University.

670
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,600
He was also Chief Seismologist for RG1.

671
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:52,600
Yes, that's right, he was Chief Seismologist for RG1, he was down in Antarctica with Task Force 47.

672
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,600
He was on the program and he had an opportunity to study the maps in advance for several days.

673
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:03,600
He was absolutely amazed, he said, look, we are now finding out what the coastline of Antarctica is like,

674
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:11,600
nearly by shooting off bombs and taking the, what do you call the thunder, the reflections from under, over a mile of ice.

675
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,600
We don't know where the ice ends and where the land ends and where the sea begins.

676
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,600
We are only now beginning to find out.

677
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:24,600
And yet everything we have found out to date is on these maps, which were made 3,000 years BC.

678
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,600
How, how were people mapping the whole coast of America?

679
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,600
The maps were made then?

680
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,600
The maps had been made.

681
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,600
I thought this was an infinite series of copies from the maps.

682
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,600
Yes, the biological from a moment.

683
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,600
Translate, wait a minute, those maps were in existence at the time of Columbus.

684
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:48,600
They could not have been made at the time of Columbus because Antarctica and the Arctic islands were already glaciated at that time.

685
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,600
I'm, I'm merely trying to separate the fact that these, these were necessarily copies.

686
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,600
Yeah, but the maps, we don't literally have the maps that were originally made 3,000 BC.

687
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,600
No, we have the period rights maps, but they were copies of earlier maps

688
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,600
and those said to be copies of earlier ones.

689
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,600
But here is the point you've got to get at.

690
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,600
The maps were made apparently before those lands were glaciated.

691
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:15,600
Now, either those lands only got glaciated within the last 500 years.

692
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:24,600
And we know that that is not so because they were glaciated when the Norskja first went, which was 1,000 years ago, up to the Arctic lot.

693
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:38,600
Either, in other words, and I don't believe them, it meant that if the time of Columbus, some of it already had, had, had mapped the whole of the, of the, the eastern seaboard of both America and Antarctica.

694
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,600
I will give you something even more fantastic than that.

695
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:53,600
They were mapped far more than 3,000 years ago because the period was wired for the accumulation of the ice over the Antarctic continent would necessarily extend into tens of thousands of years.

696
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:54,600
They were not able to do it.

697
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:55,600
No, I'm afraid you're quite wrong there.

698
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,600
And if you read Charles Halfgood and don't,

699
00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,600
The Earthshifting Cross.

700
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,600
I don't think Charles Halfgood is fully accepted yet.

701
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:03,600
No, he's not, but,

702
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,600
And there is a certain quantity of ice there.

703
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:06,600
Read Ewing.

704
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,600
And Ewing has exactly the same opinion as Halfgood.

705
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,600
All right, he's Professor Ewing over here on the, up on the block there.

706
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,600
He just said another piece out the other day.

707
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,600
No, they have discovered that ice can accumulate extremely rapidly.

708
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,600
In fact, this is just the possibility that you may be able to bring on an ice age,

709
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,600
Not in the thousand years, not in the hundred, not even in one year, but in a matter of hours.

710
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,600
And under certain circumstances.

711
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:36,600
But the accumulation of a mile of ice will not necessarily take 10,000 years at all.

712
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,600
It takes a certain length of time for the water itself to fall.

713
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,600
And if they can bring an ice age down in a, in a matter of hours,

714
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,600
If they can get that much water out of the atmosphere, when it isn't in the atmosphere, I will indeed be interested.

715
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,600
Excuse me, not water. It's, it's, first of all, it's snow.

716
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,600
And it's not water vapor that comes down, it's snow.

717
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:54,600
And it's a very different matter.

718
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:59,600
Now secondly, I did not say that all the ice in an ice cap came down in a few hours,

719
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,600
But the difference between not having an ice age, it's so-called,

720
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,600
And having an ice age can, under certain circumstances,

721
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:10,600
The change over can take place with idiomatic winds in a matter of, of, of almost a minute.

722
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:11,600
How old-

723
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,600
Wait a minute, Ivan. The definition of an ice age is an age when the ice covers the land.

724
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:15,600
No, sir.

725
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:16,600
Yes, it is.

726
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:17,600
So, you think it could be a-

727
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,600
The definition is not a theory. That is the definition.

728
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:21,600
Well, then I'm telling you-

729
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,600
If you want to say the conditions necessary to the causing of an ice age,

730
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,600
Maybe, may come about in a matter of hours,

731
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,600
I suppose theoretically that could happen.

732
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:35,600
You could have such a puff of, of, of, of, of, of other things into the atmosphere that,

733
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,600
Or a number of other ways, that it could happen.

734
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,600
I will not say that. I have no reason to believe that it has happened,

735
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,600
But on the other hand, I cannot say positively it cannot happen.

736
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,600
How did you freeze the mammoth then, standing up?

737
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:48,600
What's that one hour?

738
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,600
But we won't do that in an hour, but that's getting in another-

739
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,600
I'll tell you if anybody's going to do anything, I'm going to do it right now.

740
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:53,600
You're a piece of junk.

741
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:57,600
And, uh, you fellas and gals who want to get into radio,

742
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,600
Don't, don't even be concerned about the ice age,

743
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,600
Because this will not happen this weekend.

744
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:04,600
That I can assure you.

745
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,600
The Vinnian Saucer Intelligence,

746
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:08,600
Lester Del Ray,

747
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,600
Author of the book entitled,

748
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:11,600
Rockets Through Space,

749
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,600
Published by Winston and Hans Steffen Sampson,

750
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,600
Editorial Director of Fantastic Universe.

751
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:19,600
Ivan?

752
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,600
Sorry I interrupted you.

753
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:22,600
Uh, what?

754
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:23,600
No, I'm sorry.

755
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:24,600
Lester Del Ray.

756
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,600
Well, my first question on the map, essentially,

757
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,600
Is, uh, have you seen the map?

758
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,600
Have you seen the method they used?

759
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,600
Have you seen any details on it?

760
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,600
Yes, uh, Captain Mallory, when he was,

761
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,600
At my place he had a whole briefcase full of,

762
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,600
Uh, things that he shared with me.

763
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,600
Um, but I am not going on that,

764
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,600
I'm going on what was said by the three people,

765
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,600
On this program.

766
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:54,600
On their names.

767
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:56,600
On the names of the radio program.

768
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,600
Well, authority is a fine thing,

769
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,600
But I can remember when even the authorities

770
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:01,600
Have been confounded.

771
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,600
As a matter of fact, I remember when a couple of

772
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,600
Authorities accepted Church Words ideas on Atlantis.

773
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,600
And, uh, I would hate to rake that up again,

774
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,600
Except for the fact that I don't always accept authorities,

775
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,600
It's the best thing.

776
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,600
You have not seen the maps yourself.

777
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,600
I have not done any work on this.

778
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,600
I wrote an article saying that there's this,

779
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,600
And there's the other facts that are in that article,

780
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,600
And taking them all together,

781
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,600
I think it's about time that somebody did,

782
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,600
Somebody who's a cartographer,

783
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,600
Who knows more about mathematics than I do,

784
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,600
Does go into this thing,

785
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,600
Instead of just sitting fatally and saying,

786
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,600
Oh, I'm not a journalist, or,

787
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,600
Saying it's a forgery, go ahead and prove it.

788
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,600
Now, wait a minute.

789
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,600
You've seen the reproduction of those maps.

790
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,600
Oh, sure, I've got reproductions within my file.

791
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,600
I haven't got the actual original maps,

792
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,600
And if I did see the original maps,

793
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,600
I would not have the knowledge to be able to say

794
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,600
Whether they were modern forgeries,

795
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,600
Whether the Turkish government forwards them,

796
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:56,600
Or what.

797
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,600
I have, I've got a whole bunch of reproductions,

798
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,600
And I have seen this grid,

799
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,600
That was shown to me by Captain Mallory,

800
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,600
Dr. Breesmeister at the AGS,

801
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,600
And a senior cartographer for our leading

802
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,600
Scientific society in the geographic field.

803
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,600
And I do not think that a radio program

804
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,600
Such as the Georgetown University of the Air,

805
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,600
Is likely to allow such things to be,

806
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,600
Not only said, but a mimeograph,

807
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,600
You can write down for it if you want,

808
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,600
You can get a complete transcript,

809
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,600
And with the Linnahan, and with Walters,

810
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,600
On the program, sorry,

811
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,600
I am sceptic, like you in some things,

812
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,600
And I always try to look,

813
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,600
When somebody gives me an animal,

814
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,600
I try to find out if it's a,

815
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,600
Well, my good friend Jim Moran,

816
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,600
He gave me a tortoise once, wearing a mink coat.

817
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,600
I was immediately sceptical about it,

818
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,600
It was a gag, but I mean, I'm taking it rather exaggerated,

819
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,600
But it's true, he had a mink coat made for a tortoise.

820
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,600
I look underneath to see if it's a tortoise

821
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,600
Under there, or what it is.

822
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,600
But there's just too much going on here,

823
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,600
And it is about time that some of the people

824
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,600
Don't tear down the ideas,

825
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,600
And they're perfectly entitled to do so,

826
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,600
Should go and do just that.

827
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:05,600
Well, I am perfectly willing they should,

828
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,600
But I'm trying to find out whether there's really anything going on.

829
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,600
You say there's just too much,

830
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,600
But the only piece of concrete evidence

831
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,600
Offered by this man, that can be checked,

832
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:15,600
The 9000 degrees centigrade thing,

833
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,600
Simply will not stand up,

834
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,600
And I wonder how much the rest of it will stand up.

835
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,600
That is the only thing which I can check, then.

836
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,600
No, there's more than that.

837
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,600
I'm not submitting a thing,

838
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,600
Of classifying these things as evidence,

839
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,600
What's the remaining Ivan's article about them,

840
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,600
And from fooling around with ancient maps,

841
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,600
Myself once in a while as a hobby.

842
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:42,600
I've never seen any ancient maps with any sort of detail,

843
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,600
Except with the very close regions to where the map was drawn.

844
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,600
But the thing is, I just want to put it forth

845
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,600
As sort of an amazing incident,

846
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,600
Or a coincidence if you want,

847
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,600
Is that one thing on these maps,

848
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,600
Which Ivan brought out in the article,

849
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,600
It was not only the coastline charted,

850
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,600
But after the translation through the grid system,

851
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,600
They had arrived at,

852
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,600
They also found the mappings of certain mountain ranges,

853
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,600
Which it said here,

854
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,600
Wait, let me finish.

855
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,600
I could not check that in the time I was in.

856
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,600
Wait a second, let me finish.

857
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,600
Well, obviously these people checked it.

858
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,600
Certain mountain ranges,

859
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,600
Which apparently cannot be mapped from the ground,

860
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,600
Which only could be mapped from the air.

861
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,600
Could you ever hear of triangulation then?

862
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,600
You know, they did map mountain ranges from the ground

863
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,600
Long before they had air survey.

864
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,600
I'd grant you that air survey is desirable.

865
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,600
I don't think the map looks different.

866
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:41,600
I don't think the map looks different.

867
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,600
I would say that the mere fact that they had a map

868
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,600
Assuring the coastline of 5,000 years ago

869
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,600
Was fantastic enough for them to do it.

870
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:49,600
No, I'm not saying.

871
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,600
No, the thing is that there are different kinds of attitudes here,

872
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,600
Which really should be put forth.

873
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,600
If an archaeological team,

874
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,600
Just to throw out a supposition,

875
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:03,600
If an archaeological team,

876
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,600
Fooling around in the Arctic,

877
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,600
Suddenly would start chipping away at a block of ice

878
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:11,600
That they had, by some means,

879
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:12,600
The rather ascertained,

880
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,600
The ice was say 2 million years old,

881
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:16,600
Or something, if that's possible.

882
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,600
And deep within the ice,

883
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,600
They suddenly found the W.O.R. Microfarm.

884
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,600
You know, sealed within the ice.

885
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,600
Now there are different ways of reacting to it.

886
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,600
One, you can read the report and say,

887
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,600
All the members of the archaeological team were obviously drunk.

888
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:32,600
The other way is to say,

889
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,600
It was put there by a heavenly visitor.

890
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:36,600
The third is to say,

891
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:37,600
It couldn't possibly be there,

892
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:39,600
So therefore it's not there,

893
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:40,600
And let's not talk about it.

894
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:41,600
The fourth is to say,

895
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,600
How in the world could it ever get there?

896
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,600
Wait, Ben, just a second.

897
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,600
Life at the same time,

898
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,600
They said that there was a case

899
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,600
Of 1948 whiskey,

900
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,600
Of some kind which was not made,

901
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,600
Then I would have some reason to worry about it.

902
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,600
I could at least check up on that perhaps.

903
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,600
When a man submits a statement to me,

904
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:04,600
I do not necessarily say it is wrong,

905
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,600
But when I find part of his statement inaccurate,

906
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,600
I question the value of the whole.

907
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:10,600
It's not even accurate.

908
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:11,600
You've said here,

909
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,600
You have told us so.

910
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,600
In your article you stated that this alloy,

911
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,600
Which has now been seconded by both the Smithsonian Institute

912
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,600
And the U.S. Bureau of Standards,

913
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,600
Certainly should be able to check these things,

914
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:30,600
That some people 7000 years ago were also making steels

915
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,600
In the form of alloy that required 9000 degrees

916
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,600
Sound of grade for their manufacture.

917
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:39,600
They wouldn't require 9000.

918
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,600
That requires what it says.

919
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,600
I don't know why.

920
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:50,600
When I find part of the evidence so highly dubious,

921
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,600
And the rest of the statements fantastic,

922
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,600
I have a certain right to skepticism.

923
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,600
You have every right in the world to skepticism.

924
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,600
I'm very skeptical about grade many of these things too.

925
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:06,600
But the thing that threw me,

926
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,600
I know nothing about metallurgy,

927
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,600
So I didn't see this thing that apparently left right out at you.

928
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:13,600
It was pretty obvious.

929
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,600
Well not to me, I don't know anything about the melting point

930
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,600
Of the melting temperatures of metals or anything else like that.

931
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,600
The thing that got me and started me buzzing

932
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,600
Was not so much the temperature,

933
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,600
Which if someone could have said the melting point of steel

934
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,600
At 18000 degrees,

935
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,600
It wouldn't have made much difference to me

936
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,600
Because I don't know that much about it.

937
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,600
The thing that got me was steel, the word steel.

938
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:40,600
Steel has a very common thing actually.

939
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,600
Steel existed long before man knew how to smelt metal.

940
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,600
It existed I'll admit as far as we know

941
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,600
Only in the form of meteorite iron, but that was steel.

942
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,600
Here are artifacts which have been lying in the Smithsonian Institute

943
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:57,600
Which have been labeled early colonial arm

944
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,600
Which have turned out not to be steel

945
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,600
And they have now themselves said,

946
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,600
Dr. Mallory showed me one of the letters.

947
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,600
It was a clipping, it was a statement made by the

948
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,600
Whatever the top man in the archaeological department of the Smithsonian is

949
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:15,600
Yes, it's much to their amusement they had to admit

950
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,600
The drawers full of these things were not colonial at all

951
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,600
And there was every reason to suppose

952
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,600
That they are pre-colonial and they were probably pre-Amor Indian.

953
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,600
Then in connection with that they have found these

954
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:31,600
Some primitive smelting furnaces on hill tops and such

955
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,600
Showing that there was an iron age going on in America

956
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,600
Which would never be known before.

957
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,600
And it was estimated amongst some of the iron artifacts

958
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,600
Was steel artifacts.

959
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,600
And as you say meteorite steel, yes, but apart from manufacture

960
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,600
Made by the hand of what we supposed to be the only intelligent race on this earth man

961
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:51,600
There was not steel in existence prior to the Bessemer system

962
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,600
Except for what would come out of the, well what?

963
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:55,600
There was no steel.

964
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,600
There was open heart steel and as a matter of fact

965
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:00,600
There was even such a thing as accidental steel.

966
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:04,600
Steel is an alloy normally, an alloy of iron and carbon.

967
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:06,600
As you know.

968
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,600
As a matter of fact they got steel.

969
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:11,600
They got steel one way of getting steel.

970
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,600
It was very simple.

971
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,600
They would make it out of soft iron and stick it into charcoal

972
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,600
In which case some of the carbon from the charcoal would go into the iron

973
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,600
And produce an alloy of steel.

974
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,600
But the whole point is that these are not alloys, carbon alloys.

975
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:26,600
This is the difference.

976
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:31,600
I mean you say that steel can be made accidentally

977
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:35,600
And all except your word on it because I don't know anything about steel manufacturing

978
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:40,600
But it seems to me that, let's say that a full miker could be made accidentally

979
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:47,600
But if you suddenly were to open up an Egyptian tomb and find artifacts and pitches and tables made out of full miker

980
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,600
This all of a sudden becomes something that is slightly puzzling doesn't it?

981
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:59,600
Yes and it particularly becomes puzzling if they say that this four miker can only be made in an absolute vacuum at a pressure of 10 gravities

982
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:01,600
I'm not sure about how...

983
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:03,600
I don't see how it can be made.

984
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,600
We can make four miker today.

985
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:15,600
But if we had not made it today we might presume that the only way we could make it would be in just such a peculiar set of circumstances as you have now stated.

986
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:18,600
As usual Ivan this is all going completely off the track.

987
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:23,600
My original statement is that when some of the evidence presented in a paper

988
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,600
Which is intrinsically somewhat fantastic

989
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,600
Some of the evidence is provably false.

990
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:35,600
Then I have a large measure of reason for skepticism and I so found it in this paper.

991
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,600
Very good. All right now let's skip that one and I may give you the next one.

992
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,600
Let's not skip it but let's just keep it there.

993
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,600
I'm going to ask you a question please. On a different line Ivan.

994
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:51,600
That is this is these theory maps obviously raised questions that are really sensational important

995
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,600
On the point of view of geology and anthropology and everything else.

996
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:09,600
Do you know whether the existence and the nature and the deductions from the map have been either publicized or attacked in any of the scholarly scientific journals that should be interested in them?

997
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:10,600
They have.

998
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:15,600
It has come to me that they should have been talked about you know in the Scientific American sense.

999
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,600
It's not a technical journal.

1000
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:30,600
The Mallory's work is coming out on the maps and in the meantime it's been going on for several years and the world's most furious discussion went on.

1001
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,600
In various quarrels down there.

1002
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:38,600
I was mad at again I'd say I'd like this program for you with Captain Mallory.

1003
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:43,600
I'm rather I'm simply that is why I'm not presenting his theories for him.

1004
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:50,600
I'm simply stating what he has put in print so far and what I have got from this other published source and what he told me that night.

1005
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:57,600
But I know there's been a tremendous amount of discussion and he can go all into it and give you all the references back and forth on both sides.

1006
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:02,600
All those been a lot but they're going to wait to pop on him as soon as he's.

1007
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:18,600
There is only there is only one slide but the Perry Reets maps as puzzling as a family as they seem to me is that there was one point in which I would sigh with less which I think with as the strongest point with skepticism which I think what you should have brought up is that.

1008
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:28,600
In finding this in devising or finding what grid system apparently the ancient math make is used they will perform they had a work backwards.

1009
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:39,600
Now Ivan I think you agree that working backwards you can find anything that I interjected in my conversation he never told me that Mallory I'm sorry that's my mistake.

1010
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:46,600
I shouldn't have said that maybe they didn't but I was given to understand by him if I kept on questioning well how did you find out because.

1011
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:58,600
They went on they worked a very long time until they found one and I imagine it was they said or if it was there and this was there but it really is there and there you see take three points or something and what was it great what would it be looked like.

1012
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:02,600
That's the best my ability how you try to explain it to me.

1013
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:12,600
You will be the thing that raises I don't want to mislead anybody but the thing that raises itself in my mind is that it's the chance again by this method of working backwards I quite possible that by.

1014
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:26,600
They I if I wanted to you devise a system assuming the ancient math makers use this system if I devise a grid working backwards I could also probably get very close to proxenvation three mountains of the moon and.

1015
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:36,600
Therefore come upon the speculation that perhaps these ancient maps were really from that number of points out to the numerical chart I wish I was working with me because they're enormously.

1016
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:47,600
Working back it can be dangerous but it can be very dangerous indeed well but look don't hold that against Mallory because I'm just saying I'm not saying he did a delivery this is what I mean he had to but this is still.

1017
01:05:48,600 --> 01:06:00,600
It leaves a very open area I should imagine that was my thought that they probably did have to work backwards from what he told me that after all they were there and they were all I use the word wacky which is period editorial.

1018
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:12,600
But what he used to say they were all out of kilter then it turned it dawned upon us that they were all equally out of kilter in other words it was a mathematical connection between the amount they were out.

1019
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:26,600
They were in the right order next door to each other and about the right price but they were they were stretched in some such way and it was a question of I suppose it's easy enough if you have got the world as it really is and the world is depicted here once you had your thought that there might be.

1020
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:39,600
Have been a grid used I should imagine that which almost a monster working backwards doesn't it try and squeeze the one you've gotten the ancient map to fit the map that is today on one of our recognized systems.

1021
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:57,600
I think you'll remember the effort made to fit the built down man into the scale of evolution and there was as much reason to accept that at one time certainly as there is to accept the theory raised map without the fact that there was a statement in it which could not be backed up.

1022
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:06,600
Very very very very very built down with all the very suspect and I maintain on the evidence standing before me now this is very suspect.

1023
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:08,600
No there's quite a way to do it.

1024
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:14,600
Well I don't think you have a right Lester just because there's one thing wrong to disregard all the other things.

1025
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:26,600
Wait a minute I'm very much impressed by this these anodistic explorations of the under the ice by using explosions and measuring the speed of the sound from the.

1026
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:36,600
If the shoreline of the buried shoreline turns out to be the same time to be in these maps I am I'm stuck by that.

1027
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:37,600
Wait a minute.

1028
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:46,600
I don't say that I understand that I don't say about this but I don't think you can ignore all of the other facts just simply because one fact doesn't fit with the.

1029
01:07:46,600 --> 01:08:00,600
The second is about in the first place provided the original maps show a correlation with the Arctic ice of the land under the Arctic ice and Arctic ice provided that is so.

1030
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:15,600
And provided it can be demonstrated and is successfully demonstrated then there is some reason to look at this at the present time I have not seen adequate evidence to accept this.

1031
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:23,600
I have seen no more evidence than I could have provided for the reality of built down man.

1032
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:25,600
I'm very very skating on very thin ice.

1033
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:28,600
So we're a great many scientists who accepted built down man.

1034
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:35,600
He was always suspecting by many but there were very many articles in learned journals which accepted built down man.

1035
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:43,600
That's because it's that's because please let me finish the fact that something appears in a learned journal or over a.

1036
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:51,600
Quasar learned radio station if so such exists does not establish irrefutable proof of anything.

1037
01:08:51,600 --> 01:09:06,600
On the other hand when the same man comes up with something which is utterly preposterous offering a learned group or at least a recognized testing group as his evidence on that then I certainly have no compulsion to accept any of it.

1038
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:11,600
I have every right to regard the entire thing with suspicion until it is proved otherwise.

1039
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,600
Do you still suspect the cranium of the built down man.

1040
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:16,600
I always did.

1041
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:18,600
I was one of those who did not accept the built down man.

1042
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:19,600
Well I'm afraid your entire argument.

1043
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:20,600
Oh wait a second.

1044
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:21,600
Wait a second.

1045
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:23,600
I did I said I said the cranium.

1046
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:25,600
Oh the cranium the reality of the cranium.

1047
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,600
That I believe has been established by now.

1048
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,600
The establishes an agreement.

1049
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,600
Didn't your bone had no relationship to the cranium.

1050
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:36,600
The jaw bone was a fake and with a chimpanzee jaw bone.

1051
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:42,600
I may say that some of the leading scientists said at the time that with a very little change you become purely human.

1052
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:44,600
That's beside the point.

1053
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:56,600
But what has been overlooked in this tassel at the British Museum is this and I have a letter to this effect from none other than Professor W.C. Osman Hill right in my I think in my briefcase I'll look it out for you in which I had asked him this very question.

1054
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,600
Oh yes everybody is happy now a built down man has been gotten rid of.

1055
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,600
He was an awful nuisance on the family tree of human life at all times.

1056
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:06,600
Thank goodness he's gone.

1057
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:07,600
It's done.

1058
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:08,600
It was a fake old Dawson did it.

1059
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,600
But they've all overlooked the cranium.

1060
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:18,600
Now they have now gone to work on the cranium and they found that it is just exactly as old as Dawson said the combined cranium and mandible was.

1061
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:21,600
This is not surprising at all.

1062
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:25,600
But the fantastic nature of built down man has been disposed of.

1063
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:40,600
It was always pointed out by Elliott Smith and it's not that if you read the antiquity a man who went into the standard textbooks on human physical anthropology and the origin of man you'll find that built down man was always out on a limb and the better men.

1064
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:51,600
Elliott Smith and Woodward and Woodward Smith Woodward and all of them are the keys needed a tremendous amount of work and he always said it doesn't fit.

1065
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:53,600
But Joe does not fit to the scale.

1066
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:55,600
They look at it they do physically.

1067
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,600
The crowbar never accepted it at all.

1068
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:01,600
You see any class number didn't ban crowbar in class would say with a forgery.

1069
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:08,600
The point remains that men are good reputation men who had reason to know did accept it.

1070
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:12,600
You can always like reason and this is anything I'd like to point out.

1071
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:18,600
Please may I finish the reason that I bring this up is very simple.

1072
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:31,600
You cannot prove unlimited authority anything and when limited authority is used to back up a complicated and fantastic situation which may or may not be true.

1073
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:43,600
I do not say and when that authority is also used to back up something which is not true the whole must be regarded with considerable skepticism until the parts can be sorted out and evaluated.

1074
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:52,600
All right. Now the point about the Piltown man is that the reason why particular first was a great deal of disagreement about it for many years.

1075
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:58,600
It was never fully accepted by a great many outstanding archaeologists and anthropologists.

1076
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:12,600
Now exactly the Piltown man is that the reason you why you find such disagreement I think and I don't think this will be disputed by anthropologists because the discovery of the ancient and early home of mankind is one of oceanally laid in subjects

1077
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:24,600
and anthropology there is now a good many countries would love very much to claim as the birthplace of man to be in such and such a place.

1078
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,600
This is something that is not emotionally neutral.

1079
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:41,600
And in fact when it came out apparently that in England at the time when on the continent of Europe men were walking around that you couldn't quite distinguish between animals and apes and all the rest of it.

1080
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:50,600
In England you had this fantastically highly evolved human being with it with almost completely human cranium and an ape like jaw.

1081
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:54,600
This is something that English anthropologists took the light it in.

1082
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:57,600
I mean it was whoopee here is the ancient birthplace of man.

1083
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:10,600
Now it seems that very strikingly one situation and for policy has come about is that the final orbit is as to prehistoric fossils of mankind has always been the American anthropologist

1084
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:19,600
because it is quite impossible that America could ever have been the one of the early dawn places or the birthplaces of mankind because there are no old world monkeys.

1085
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:36,600
Now it has been throughout the literature and American anthropology that the Tiltown man was a unfortunate accident or I mean if they came right out they called it a hoax because of the fact that the cranium and the jaw bone were separate and were an unfeeled strata

1086
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:47,600
it was a broken strata and there were all sorts of implications that perhaps some early Englishmen went over to the continent and got himself a jaw bone of an ape and went back and because maybe this was a weapon it was buried with him.

1087
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:53,600
But the cranium has never been in doubt because Dawson was a very good anthropologist by the way.

1088
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:56,600
Nobody questions and yeah they did for a while but they shouldn't.

1089
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:57,600
No they didn't.

1090
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:05,600
He was some sort of semi amateur scientist and it was a great deal but there are great many English anthropologists of high professionalism.

1091
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,600
They are high professional stature and still do today.

1092
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:14,600
You can still get into an argument in English anthropological circles about the authenticity of the Tiltown man.

1093
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,600
Except there's one thing that no one has said.

1094
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:28,600
The thing that's amazing about the Tiltown hoax and its eventual discovery and exposure is that no one has ever mentioned anything about the Swanscomb man.

1095
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:29,600
Oh Gally Hill.

1096
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:30,600
Oh yeah.

1097
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:31,600
No one has mentioned.

1098
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:43,600
And it's what because the Swanscomb man with the identical situation with a human like cranium and an ape or simian like drawer found in un and in sealed excuse me sealed strata.

1099
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:44,600
Repetitive.

1100
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:51,600
And Dawson had nothing to do with Swanscomb and everyone has sort of shunted out that Swanscomb man is becoming as much an annoyance as Tiltown man.

1101
01:14:51,600 --> 01:15:03,600
And now they've dated the cranium of Tiltown man and found that it is just as out of place as Dawson said it was in so far that it's biochemical matter radiochemical method.

1102
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:09,600
It is earlier even than Dawson suggested that the combined skull was.

1103
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:19,600
In other words you've got a bigger problem left now with the cranium of Tiltown man and a greater mystery than we ever had when the hoax and when it was partly a hoax.

1104
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:28,600
And that's what they know the British Museum they just got out this is Selenium method you know of infiltration and the old man of the method I think for the mineral content.

1105
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:35,600
And it is here is a real human cranium they're extraordinarily thick and looking exactly like Gally Hill man and Swanscomb.

1106
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:43,600
But it does have certain tendency to go to worlds what are called the pitigantro pines that's to the government director of the famous ape man.

1107
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:48,600
It's without a jaw it's teeth are all right it's a modern man but it's a way down below.

1108
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:58,600
Nandotellers that we begin to realize now that Nandotell type man went evolved backwards the most human like with the earliest and the least human like with the latest.

1109
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:00,600
And may I just throw this into the pot.

1110
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:07,600
You know they turned out a Nandotell type man in in in a western state of this union last year.

1111
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:17,600
Yeah in a western state in New Mexico they have got up now a Vandotell type brain case.

1112
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:18,600
And the man.

1113
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:24,600
The man bring up one or that's all in print and the Southwest Museum has got it all.

1114
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:33,600
Doctor maybe you remember his name seven but one thing that you said you never could have early man in this continent because we didn't have any old world monkeys.

1115
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:34,600
I may pick you up on that.

1116
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:36,600
This is my comment and that's it.

1117
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:39,600
No but we did have the the Tarsius the original Tarsius.

1118
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:41,600
But we never had the dry perfect.

1119
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:47,600
We don't need it personally I believe the dry or perfectly goes to nothing else but the type of the period.

1120
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:49,600
But boom we'll leave that out of it.

1121
01:16:49,600 --> 01:17:02,600
No but we did have the Tarsius and it's apparently goes Tarsius leave your one way Tarsius the other from the Tarsius to early proto anthropoid anthropoid off to the side and then proto humanoid and then up to us.

1122
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:07,600
But maybe get back to this whole business of the little men was I'm coming around to it.

1123
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:13,600
The point is this these mountain ranges are on the map.

1124
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:21,600
Some of these mountain ranges were not even known till 1952 I think it was when Mr.

1125
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:37,600
Walter had the first surveys from the U.S. Army of these mountains in the Canadian Arctic Island and they were on the period rise maps and nobody had suggested that they'd be mapped in the air until these three gentlemen were just for gentle and we're discussing it on that broadcast

1126
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:44,600
and one said well somebody tried to moderate a turnaround to Reverend Linnahan and said well how could it have been done in your opinion.

1127
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:48,600
He said frankly unless they had some kind of aerial device.

1128
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,600
He said I don't see how on earth they could have got these maps.

1129
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:53,600
Now my whole point is here.

1130
01:17:53,600 --> 01:18:00,600
My drama and reporter and it's like and everything else and gather them together all these statements which don't fit and then you put them all together in like a checkerboard.

1131
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:06,600
You put together a puzzle and there is one X faction there all the way through.

1132
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:16,600
Everybody closes their minds and says nobody could have had three dimensional geometry and flying machines in 5000 or 3000 B.C.

1133
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:17,600
Right.

1134
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:24,600
If there was a civilization on the surface of this earth that advanced then they would have surely left some artifacts that we could have found.

1135
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:34,600
Just supposing that the intelligent intelligences who did that job didn't come from this earth but came from outside and are primitive.

1136
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:41,600
They came from a planet going around another Sunday come from the center of a Sunday Sunday Sunday from outside this planet.

1137
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:49,600
What makes it so amazing that we are the only intelligent animal in the universe or creature in the universe.

1138
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:54,600
The almighty is infinite wisdom is surely seen fit to have some intelligence develop on other planets.

1139
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:56,600
Alright just supposing they did come.

1140
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:57,600
I didn't say they did.

1141
01:18:57,600 --> 01:18:59,600
I think it's quite a lot of evidence possible evidence for that.

1142
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:07,600
They came here primitive man in the Stone Age or even in ancient Egyptians a dynasty number 10.

1143
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:09,600
They weren't very bright of technician.

1144
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:15,600
These fellows may have come here and taught a few people how to use a pen and somebody who read a compass maybe and show them what a lens was.

1145
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:23,600
But if these visitors from outer space or inner space were coming here they're not going to leave their artifacts lying around on the surface of there.

1146
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:25,600
They'd be very valuable in their shifts.

1147
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:31,600
They'd loan them to a lot of primitives but they might have taught the primitives to do some of the hack work in the mapping and a bit of mining for them.

1148
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:38,600
And then when they pushed off our ancestors or the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians may have retained a little bit of knowledge.

1149
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:45,600
Those people they had some kind of you went like getting you got far and it was so hot that look we got this wonderful new metal we can use.

1150
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:48,600
And all that would have gone into our mythology.

1151
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:54,600
Stefan and I have had long conversations on this because when you dig back into all mythologies you do find.

1152
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:59,600
It's always this thing we got it from somebody else.

1153
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:07,600
I was just wondering about the Niagara Cycle Massage Unit if it's possible if they had anything like that you know back to the tent.

1154
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:14,600
I'll tell you what because the on Stefan Souterson editorial director of Fantastic Universe

1155
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,600
Ben Esquith the cybernetician.

1156
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,600
Ivan Sanderson noted zoologist.

1157
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:28,600
And we have Lester Del Ray with us this morning the author of the book entitled Rockets Through Space published by Winston.

1158
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:30,600
And we have some telegrams.

1159
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:34,600
Let me take just a moment to remind you that we do have a teleprinter in our studio.

1160
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:42,600
Pick up your phone in any community where you may be at the present time and we do cover some twenty seven states during the early hours of the morning.

1161
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:52,600
And tell the Western Union operator that you'd like to send a message to Long John Wax New York City Wax is spelled W. U. X.

1162
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,600
Those are not the call letters of the station that's a code word.

1163
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:59,600
And that must be a part of the address.

1164
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:10,600
And if you have a question or if you disagree with some statement that has been made or possibly will be made during the balance of the discussion this morning.

1165
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:16,600
Well you can accomplish that by just sending the telegram to Long John Wax New York City.

1166
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:21,600
Lester do you want to read a couple of those telegrams that we we've received already.

1167
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:27,600
Yeah this one is from Philadelphia signed by Rob Roy Hunt.

1168
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,600
Long John Wax.

1169
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:34,600
Someone asked me what do you think of the anniversary of Russia's Putnik.

1170
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,600
We should have put one up in the meantime.

1171
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:40,600
I said worry about what we throw down.

1172
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:45,600
It is much more to the point and much more advanced.

1173
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:46,600
Incidentally he's right.

1174
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:53,600
It is the anniversary of Russia was the anniversary of Russian first putnik man first entrance into space in October 4th 1967.

1175
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:55,600
Happy birthday.

1176
01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:58,600
Happy birthday dear Putnik wherever you lie in ashes today.

1177
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:00,600
He blokes in the air.

1178
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:02,600
He blokes.

1179
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:08,600
Of course I wonder how we're going to throw something down until we put something up but then I will comment on that.

1180
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:11,600
Here's one from Winwood Pennsylvania.

1181
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:18,600
Please tell the Philadelphia float Ben that I hope we shall very soon again hear the superb Ben is with.

1182
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:26,600
Right to the Jurgen discussion of May 31st 1958 signed Marion Clark.

1183
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:27,600
Thank you very much.

1184
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:29,600
Very nice.

1185
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:34,600
I thought you'd agree with it.

1186
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:35,600
Yeah.

1187
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:38,600
Garrison New York.

1188
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:40,600
Among the elements are any equal.

1189
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:43,600
If not why expect it of man.

1190
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,600
Tell me anything that is equal to something else.

1191
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,600
This is signed by M. Belcher.

1192
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:52,600
I don't quite understand myself.

1193
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:55,600
Among the elements are any equal.

1194
01:22:55,600 --> 01:23:00,600
I mean but certainly not in weight in atomic weight.

1195
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,600
I don't know how else you would figure it.

1196
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:04,600
Interesting anyway.

1197
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:17,600
I guess the idea of the telegram is that if the elements are unequal why should you expect forms of life such as mankind be equal to any other.

1198
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:20,600
And here's one from Brooklyn.

1199
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:21,600
Long John.

1200
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,600
How many cases of the creatures are recorded.

1201
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:26,600
How many persons have seen them.

1202
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:27,600
This is signed by Sydney Isaacs.

1203
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:37,600
Well I think that Isabel Davis will comment on that after a brief period of time because we want to continue the discussion in the line that it has been going.

1204
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:39,600
Here's one other telegram.

1205
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:43,600
Evidently this man.

1206
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:44,600
Oh that's Howard Menger.

1207
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:47,600
Evidently he doesn't agree with some statement that's been made.

1208
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:48,600
Let's find out.

1209
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:49,600
Read it first place.

1210
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:53,600
Well this is from Howard Menger of Lebanon, New Jersey.

1211
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:54,600
Long John.

1212
01:23:54,600 --> 01:24:01,600
Scientists of 150 years ago considered the platypus of eastern Australia and Tasmania to be a hope.

1213
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:07,600
Skepticism has not changed any about other so-called mysteries of today.

1214
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:13,600
Tell Ivan there are little men and we have photographed life forms.

1215
01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:15,600
Photographed life forms.

1216
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:17,600
Well first of all let's clear away the first part.

1217
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:23,600
Howard is quite right on the subject of the platypus having been disallowed for many years.

1218
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:26,600
First of all they thought that it was the things that sailors used to make.

1219
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:35,600
They used to get the head front end of a monkey and stitch it onto a fish and sell it in the seaports in Europe as a juvenile mermaid.

1220
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:40,600
Some of them were so beautifully made that you really couldn't tell where the fish began and the monkey ended.

1221
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:51,600
And they did when they first saw the platypus they said, oh well I mean somebody's just taken a steam roller and run over a groundhog or something and then put a beaver's tail on it and a few other things.

1222
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:53,600
But there's other business I don't get at all.

1223
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:57,600
Tell Ivan there are little men and we have photographed life forms.

1224
01:24:57,600 --> 01:24:59,600
I photographed life forms the other day.

1225
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:01,600
I took a picture of people.

1226
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:02,600
Exactly.

1227
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:03,600
Where's that side of mine?

1228
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:04,600
Down.

1229
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:05,600
Help me get rid of people.

1230
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:07,600
Well that's no.

1231
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:08,600
Stamp out people.

1232
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:11,600
Here's Howard, known Howard for many years.

1233
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:12,600
I can explain himself.

1234
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:14,600
Of course he's photographed life forms.

1235
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:16,600
He got photographed a bug in the back yard.

1236
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:17,600
That's the life form.

1237
01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:18,600
Then he means extraterrestrial life.

1238
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:19,600
I offense this though.

1239
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:21,600
But where is photographs of little men?

1240
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:22,600
Have you got them?

1241
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:23,600
Certainly like to see them.

1242
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:25,600
Yes, I've never heard of any photographs.

1243
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:27,600
They don't register them or have I?

1244
01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,600
Well it's part of the ability that they...

1245
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:32,600
Well Howard is always making statements like this.

1246
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:35,600
Boy if you're listening, we've known each other for a number of years.

1247
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:38,600
You're always saying that you've got these photographs and this and that.

1248
01:25:38,600 --> 01:25:39,600
And the other way are they?

1249
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:40,600
Why can't we see them?

1250
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:45,600
And I'd like very much to see a photograph of a little small type of humanoid.

1251
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:51,600
I'd like to see a photograph, a clear photograph of one of these human type space people.

1252
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:53,600
I have yet to see one.

1253
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:54,600
I've seen it still away.

1254
01:25:54,600 --> 01:26:00,600
In the Allingham book you remember there was a photograph of a shadow.

1255
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:05,600
It was supposed to be a humanoid extraterrestrial from Mars.

1256
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:06,600
Thank you for bringing it up.

1257
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:07,600
It was just a back view.

1258
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:08,600
Yeah, just a back view.

1259
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:12,600
But that's the only picture that I can recall.

1260
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:15,600
I don't know if you accept or a rink of course.

1261
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:21,600
Well there's that little creature that came from a museum in Colorado.

1262
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:22,600
Oh yes, yes.

1263
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:24,600
You know, Kenneth Arnold's pamphlet.

1264
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:26,600
I've seen that creature.

1265
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:30,600
This is a little quote man, unquote.

1266
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:31,600
I don't know what it is.

1267
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:32,600
What do you think it is?

1268
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:36,600
That creature was done by Ted Kazimeroff who is now the official historian of the Bronx.

1269
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,600
He's also a very wonderful, wonderful person.

1270
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:44,600
And he teaches mental dental surgery on kids, what's he called.

1271
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:45,600
He had this thing.

1272
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:47,600
It was brought to him by one of these crack pots.

1273
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:50,600
Are you sure this is the same one that's held in Colorado?

1274
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:52,600
Yeah, it was brought from Colorado.

1275
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:57,600
It was alleged to have been found in a cave in conjunction with some peculiar bits and pieces of something.

1276
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:03,600
It is a personally normal, not normal abnormal, well-known abnormality.

1277
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:06,600
It's the most peculiar thing, biologically.

1278
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:13,600
Apparently, human beings and animals can age in the womb before they're ever born.

1279
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:15,600
They come out 80 years old.

1280
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:17,600
It's the most astonishing.

1281
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:24,600
This was a case of one particular type of deformity which has a very flattened type to top of the skull.

1282
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:28,600
It also has gone through this, which I can remember the word, it's a sort of speeded up geriatric.

1283
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:31,600
The whole life history has gone through.

1284
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:35,600
Sometimes we had little, tiny, old men who were only a year old, you see.

1285
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:38,600
This was probably still born and was of that nature.

1286
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:42,600
He said these people brought it to him and said, at last we've got a space creature.

1287
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:46,600
He took one look at it and was able to say immediately what it was.

1288
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:49,600
He showed it to me at that time. It was sort of mummified.

1289
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:51,600
I can't say that's the same one.

1290
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:56,600
These people, they're always coming up and saying, we've got this and we've got that.

1291
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:58,600
Where are they?

1292
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:02,600
Mind you, I'd be on your side of the fence if I saw the photograph because I'm not a photographer.

1293
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:08,600
But I have shown certain photographs that have been shown to me, not of space people,

1294
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:11,600
but a big game hunting in Africa.

1295
01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:16,600
Bob Duncan, who's one of my partners, he is a brilliant professional amateur,

1296
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:19,600
amateur professional photographer, he said to me one day, he said, look,

1297
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:21,600
I'm not going to publish these photographs.

1298
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:27,600
He gave me two photographs of a man standing in the foreground holding a rifle

1299
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:31,600
and a very dangerous beast charging him.

1300
01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:35,600
In one photograph, it was a sequence of photographs.

1301
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:38,600
You could see the beast away in a very far distance,

1302
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:41,600
and then you could see it closer and then you could see it very close up.

1303
01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:46,600
But he took a lens, it's a funny shape lens he has, it's sort of oblate,

1304
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:53,600
and he said, just take a look at the clothing of the gallant sportsman.

1305
01:28:53,600 --> 01:29:00,600
And you will see that every crease, even the flies sitting on his pristine white shirt

1306
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:05,600
were in identical positions when the animal was of all different distances.

1307
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:10,600
And he said, I will not publish the one where the rifle is practically sticking down the nose of said beast,

1308
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:15,600
because it's the same beast which you can just see in the distance in one photograph

1309
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:17,600
and the man is standing exactly in the same position,

1310
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:20,600
so they've simply done a nice dubbing job, one or the other.

1311
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:26,600
Hasn't this been proven to have been done on camera of the contact photographs too?

1312
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:27,600
They aren't that good even.

1313
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:28,600
It has been proven.

1314
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:33,600
Have you seen the stuff that was sold at the spacecraft convention?

1315
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,600
I was at the convention, but I didn't have time to see the set.

1316
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:38,600
You haven't seen the set?

1317
01:29:38,600 --> 01:29:39,600
I would assume that they are the same ones.

1318
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:40,600
They seem to be interesting.

1319
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:43,600
Aren't they the same pictures that we've always seen?

1320
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:45,600
No, they're not the new ones.

1321
01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:51,600
And very, if there's photographs of little men, as this is what he's talking about,

1322
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:57,600
or of life forms, there are no more convincing in that set that he was sold, I believe, for $8 a set.

1323
01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:02,600
One of the newspapers you're wrong is that they had a special convention price of $5.

1324
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:07,600
That is right, but the literature listed is $8, you ordered them by mail.

1325
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:08,600
I know.

1326
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,600
They are really a fantastic set of photos.

1327
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:18,600
Do these include the photographs in Marla Baxter's My Cetanian Lover?

1328
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:19,600
No, they are different.

1329
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:27,600
Because I was interested in those pictures of 250, the book is called 250, doesn't it?

1330
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:29,600
The 72 pages, $2.50.

1331
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:31,600
I was interested.

1332
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:36,600
You're going to have trouble even if you do get a photograph.

1333
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:45,600
No, but really, there was one photograph in particular there, which I thought was quite interesting.

1334
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:48,600
Which I really would have liked to have seen the original of.

1335
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:53,600
Do you remember when the man disappears, he doesn't show on the film?

1336
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:59,600
I'm thinking one of the spacecraft landing, which showed rather a Cetanian craft, which

1337
01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:02,600
reminded me of a few other photographs I've seen.

1338
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:08,600
But do you remember Ivan on one occasion when we had one of these discussions, when I told Howard

1339
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:17,600
and I repeated on the air again that any time he expects a landing, or any time anything is going to happen,

1340
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,600
I would be delighted and I know, I think I can speak for you too.

1341
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:23,600
We would both be delighted to be there.

1342
01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:27,600
And see the thing, of course we're going to have trouble with photography, because you know there are some

1343
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:30,600
mirages which can be photographed and some which can't.

1344
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:32,600
And it's a...

1345
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:43,600
Still, I would be delighted to be present at any such happening.

1346
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:50,600
Of course I might end up, I might end up with Lester expressing his doubt about me,

1347
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:57,600
just as he expresses his doubt about the complete, should we say, doubt about the possible

1348
01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:03,600
gullibility of Father Lemmahan, but still, I mean I would be willing to take my chances on that.

1349
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:04,600
So would I.

1350
01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:09,600
Well I don't think either of you gentlemen would approach the occasion in the proper frame of mind

1351
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:11,600
and therefore I doubt that you will be interested.

1352
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:19,600
Well, but you see, in the though, I have in my day, in my younger, less unregenerate science fiction

1353
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:27,600
whatnot days, I've studied the philosophies, I've had some familiarity with the higher things

1354
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:31,600
and so I undoubtedly would approach it with the proper spirit.

1355
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:37,600
Well may I make this suggestion, we have devoted a tremendous amount of time to the spacecraft

1356
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:45,600
and the invention to the mengers, the Vantassels, the George Hunt-Wiliamsons, et cetera.

1357
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:50,600
I think we could get back to our discussion of the morning because we're certainly very, very,

1358
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:59,600
at least I am interested in learning more about Isabelle Davis' theories and Ivan Sanderson's theories

1359
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:05,600
rather than discussing the menger thing that I think if menger ever decides not to talk,

1360
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:08,600
they'll inform because I know it backwards and forth.

1361
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:14,600
I'm glad you make that clear distinction and I would like to make it again between what we use,

1362
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:20,600
lack of a better word, ufology and ufology and what are commonly called nowadays contactors

1363
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:24,600
or forphyrians or sorcerers I like to call them myself.

1364
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:27,600
There is an absolute distinction.

1365
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:32,600
They make certain claims, we do not feel that they have both forward any evidence.

1366
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:34,600
We do not make any particular claims.

1367
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:36,600
I think we're just probing and asking questions.

1368
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:38,600
We are highly skeptical.

1369
01:33:38,600 --> 01:33:42,600
I don't, you certainly won't find a more skeptical person in the world than Lex Mavon.

1370
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:44,600
That I'll buy.

1371
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:46,600
It's perfectly true.

1372
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:51,600
I am not so skeptical because I've had a couple of shots in my life, things in my own field

1373
01:33:51,600 --> 01:33:56,600
that just didn't fit in and yet there they were and you've got to do something about it.

1374
01:33:56,600 --> 01:34:02,600
And I do think that that telegram which you had a very brief one saying how many times you have these

1375
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:05,600
until men being seen or something that's a very good point.

1376
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:12,600
We sit up here and we talk and all of your nine listeners, you know, are fascinated but we cannot

1377
01:34:12,600 --> 01:34:16,600
for Lex or anybody you cannot bring all the evidence up here.

1378
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:19,600
You'd have to be like Leon Davison and bring suitcases full of stuff.

1379
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:24,600
But I do think that we should give your listeners some actual facts.

1380
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:26,600
Isabelle's a person.

1381
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:28,600
She translated this book.

1382
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:33,600
Here is a book which is on a quite different subject really or thought and he calls it all for ten.

1383
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:35,600
Um, straight line theory.

1384
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:36,600
That's one thing.

1385
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:38,600
But in the book, how many are Isabelle?

1386
01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:45,600
I think may I take a moment to remind our listeners that we are discussing a book that was translated by

1387
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:47,600
Lex Mabin and Isabelle Davis.

1388
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:51,600
It's entitled Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery.

1389
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:57,600
The author is Aimee Michelle published by Criterion and it's available in your bookstores.

1390
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:08,600
And it's a book that I think anybody who may have some interest in flying saucers, I think that it's must reading.

1391
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:13,600
I think it's a great book and something that you'll enjoy reading.

1392
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:17,600
And it'll pass to give you some food for thought.

1393
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:21,600
There are three particularly interesting facets about the book.

1394
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:28,600
John, and one is of course his orthotenic theory, the theory of orthotenic lines,

1395
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:37,600
which he observed in the Sightings in France in the enormous flat there in the fall of 1954.

1396
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:42,600
In this country we are accustomed to thinking in 1952 as the big year for saucers

1397
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:48,600
because that was when the largest number of sightings occurred here, tremendous peaks.

1398
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:54,600
But actually the European wave in the fall of 1954 is probably even greater.

1399
01:35:54,600 --> 01:36:02,600
And he analyzes these sightings and discovers for a period I think it was about three or four weeks

1400
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:07,600
that he found these patterns of straight lines.

1401
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:13,600
They were not lines along which each of the objects traveled,

1402
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:23,600
but they were more like a railway map of routes which were used by several different objects in the course of each day.

1403
01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:31,600
And the route changed about midnight according to his plotting of them.

1404
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:38,600
Now that is the first and the most interesting theory because it can be tested in future flaps

1405
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:45,600
if we have sufficient data, if we know the place and the exact time of sightings.

1406
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:51,600
Can be tested. In fact we tried to test it for the November 1957 Floppy, United States,

1407
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:56,600
which is the most recent one, first week in November last year.

1408
01:36:56,600 --> 01:37:02,600
And we did not discover these orthotenic lines in that group of sightings.

1409
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:07,600
Now whether this is for technical reasons, whether they weren't being used,

1410
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:11,600
whether there was no such pattern of lines, or not, we just don't know.

1411
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:16,600
We found what Mr. Nebbon called pseudo-orthotenic lines.

1412
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:24,600
That is if you get put down enough these sightings you can join a certain number of them of the points with this great line.

1413
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:33,600
But if anyone wants to compare the map for the United States last fall with some of the maps from France,

1414
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:36,600
they will see that the type of pattern is quite different.

1415
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:45,600
I saw you studying them then, and don't you agree that the overall appearance of that United States map

1416
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:50,600
is quite different from the ones, for example, for October 7th and 11th in France.

1417
01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:53,600
The general effect is the same.

1418
01:37:53,600 --> 01:38:00,600
Now I can testify that those lines exist in France because I spent about four weeks with my living in rugs

1419
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,600
to large-map the plants pinned down on it.

1420
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:08,600
We had to detour around this whole time in my very sweet little cleaning room,

1421
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:13,600
and it was quite distressed because you couldn't vacuum the rugs for about three weeks with a map of France.

1422
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:20,600
We tied it in the pins in the proper place, and we put threads and strings to each other.

1423
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:24,600
And I can assure you that those lines do exist as they are drawn in France.

1424
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:26,600
You didn't find them in the United States.

1425
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:32,600
And that's the first interesting thing about the book, and the second interesting thing is Mr. Mevin's appendix

1426
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:37,600
describing the flap last November, which had a number of very, very interesting cases.

1427
01:38:37,600 --> 01:38:44,600
We couldn't create all of them in detail, but there are some very unusual ones, including one,

1428
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:52,600
which we consider very authentic of a radio signal emitted by a UFO up in a lake bascadone,

1429
01:38:52,600 --> 01:38:55,600
on the shore of Lake Bascadone in Canada.

1430
01:38:55,600 --> 01:39:04,600
Mr. Mevin himself interviewed the witnesses in that case, and he regards the account as perfectly authentic and reliable.

1431
01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:07,600
Can you tell us something about the interview?

1432
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:08,600
About the account?

1433
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:13,600
Well, these hunters were up there in the...

1434
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:16,600
They just had a hunting party, I think it was four people.

1435
01:39:16,600 --> 01:39:22,600
I'll have to look at it in the book to make sure that I have the details correctly.

1436
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:25,600
And they had a radio on.

1437
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:27,600
These hunters?

1438
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:28,600
Yes, that's right.

1439
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:31,600
And one man went out, I guess he went out to get a drink of water,

1440
01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:34,600
something came back in and said, I saw flying saucers.

1441
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:36,600
There's one hovering over the wood.

1442
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:38,600
They were not tending out, they had a cabin.

1443
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:39,600
They had a cabin, that is right.

1444
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:41,600
And they had a radio in this cabin.

1445
01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:42,600
That is right.

1446
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:43,600
They had a listening to the radio.

1447
01:39:43,600 --> 01:39:44,600
That is right, that is right.

1448
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:49,600
And he said, look, there it is, it's over that hill.

1449
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:56,600
And there was this thing with a very broad beam of light coming down, and another one going up,

1450
01:39:56,600 --> 01:40:01,600
so that the clouds above the object were illuminated by the beam going upwards.

1451
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:04,600
There was a very broad beam, it wasn't a narrow one,

1452
01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:10,600
and the trees below, the trees on the hill were illuminated by the descending beam.

1453
01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:21,600
And it was perfectly motionless, and about this time they noticed that they weren't getting the radio program that they should.

1454
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:23,600
And what was the radio?

1455
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:24,600
Static?

1456
01:40:24,600 --> 01:40:25,600
Yes, they're static.

1457
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:27,600
Was the program, was the radio conked out?

1458
01:40:27,600 --> 01:40:34,600
This is what I want to look up and make sure whether they were getting an interference signal,

1459
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:36,600
or whether it was completely blanked out.

1460
01:40:36,600 --> 01:40:37,600
I didn't talk to this.

1461
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:40,600
I can take up that, they had two radio systems there,

1462
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:45,600
and one of which they always got a government time signal on, which goes always.

1463
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:49,600
They went absolutely blank, both of them, didn't they, except for a...

1464
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:54,600
No, it is, excuse me, it was a battery powered radio, because there was no electricity at the camp,

1465
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:59,600
and there was no reception on the radio, that's it.

1466
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:05,600
Or excuse me, excuse me, I don't know whether it was a radio or portable shortwave, which was also probably useful.

1467
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:10,600
And not even the government time signal, which they picked up, yes.

1468
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:15,600
But at one shortwave frequency, a very strong signal was received.

1469
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:21,600
I'm very sorry, man, everybody wants to hear this, and you're sort of going off mic.

1470
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:23,600
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

1471
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:28,600
I'll prop it up in front of me so that I can share the details.

1472
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:34,600
They did have a battery powered radio and another radio, portable shortwave,

1473
01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:40,600
and both of them went out, except that at one shortwave frequency, a very strong signal was received.

1474
01:41:40,600 --> 01:41:46,600
It described as a rapidly modulated, single tone, somewhat like Morse code in effect,

1475
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:49,600
but it was not Morse, which would have been recognized immediately,

1476
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:52,600
because there were two of the hunters with radio hands.

1477
01:41:52,600 --> 01:41:56,600
It was so strong that it seemed to have blocked up the receiver,

1478
01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:03,600
and the statement was made that this effect is well known to those who live near radio transmitting stations,

1479
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:06,600
and probably is well known to you, Lauren John.

1480
01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:12,600
There's about 15 minutes of this, and then the objects began to rise and move slowly off to the south,

1481
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:14,600
went into the clouds.

1482
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:21,600
The radios were tried as then, and then they worked after the objects had gone into the clouds.

1483
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:27,600
The 400s, shaken by the obvious unearthliness of what they had just seen,

1484
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:32,600
bolted the cabin door and loaded all their guns before going to bed.

1485
01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:40,600
This is quite a fairly frequent gun loading, and wanting to arm oneself against these things.

1486
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:50,600
One of the cases in Michel, possibly the first encounter with an alleged social occupant

1487
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:55,600
in Europe in the fall of 1954, Nifama was carrying home a pitchfork,

1488
01:42:55,600 --> 01:43:01,600
and after this thing was over, he said he regretted very much that he hadn't used the pitchfork

1489
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:07,600
to force the preacher to accompany him, or else to kill him to have him for a specimen.

1490
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:14,600
When we get back to the 400s in Canada, did they see anybody?

1491
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:15,600
Any occupant in the area?

1492
01:43:15,600 --> 01:43:17,600
No, they did not. This object was strictly airborne.

1493
01:43:17,600 --> 01:43:21,600
It did not land, and they saw no occupant even inside without it landing.

1494
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:23,600
He kept happening, sent it.

1495
01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:36,600
What leads you to believe, Isabelle, or Alex Mevin, that this unusual craft was from another planet?

1496
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:41,600
Are you suggesting the ultimate explanation that it might be one of ours?

1497
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:46,600
I'm just speaking of that at the moment.

1498
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:51,600
I know nothing about the story. I've read it too, but I know that our listeners

1499
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:54,600
possibly have the same thought in mind.

1500
01:43:54,600 --> 01:44:06,600
I remember, I don't know, maybe four or five months ago, that something like this happened in Texas,

1501
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:14,600
where in Illinois I spoke to a chief of police out there, or rather,

1502
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:19,600
Lieutenant of the Illinois State Police, on the beeper phone,

1503
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:25,600
and he told me that their equipment in the radio car conked out on them.

1504
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:30,600
They saw a bright flash of light, and he described this in detail.

1505
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:45,600
Now, I was just wondering, isn't it possible that this craft could be something that has been manufactured on this planet?

1506
01:44:45,600 --> 01:44:49,600
Yes, in this case it could, because the movement of the object was slow.

1507
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:56,600
It was a hovering object, and I suppose you could say that there was no, there was a possibility.

1508
01:44:56,600 --> 01:44:59,600
There was some kind of an engine there that was holding it up.

1509
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:02,600
Binoculars, which they used on it, showed no detail.

1510
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:09,600
It was just something that was just spherical, and there's nothing they could identify it with

1511
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:16,600
that had been seen, no known, terraciously manufactured object,

1512
01:45:16,600 --> 01:45:20,600
that they were aware of, that it could have been, or would have been,

1513
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:23,600
with these two beams of light growing up and down.

1514
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:28,600
It is a possibility in this case, because you do not have these violent maneuvers,

1515
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:34,600
which are such a marked feature of the ones that do definitely seem to be extra stress,

1516
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:41,600
real simply because there's no way of figuring out how any airplane or jets that we have

1517
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:43,600
could possibly move away from the object.

1518
01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:49,600
Why are you so interested in this particular story,

1519
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:53,600
when there's no evidence of even little men?

1520
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:59,600
I mean, there's nothing really fabulous about this story, but I think, I may be wrong,

1521
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:08,600
I think you've implied, Isabel, that this is possibly proof that something is happening that's rather unusual.

1522
01:46:08,600 --> 01:46:12,600
Well, I think it was unusual, don't you, John?

1523
01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:20,600
Not necessarily. It isn't, and of course, if I say no, immediately your question would be,

1524
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:27,600
well, when was the last time that you saw something like this, and I must admit that I have never had an experience similar to this,

1525
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:32,600
but I've heard of a number of these situations.

1526
01:46:32,600 --> 01:46:35,600
I've been told that they have a curry course on this program.

1527
01:46:35,600 --> 01:46:39,600
I've been told so many things that it's pretty difficult to know what's what.

1528
01:46:39,600 --> 01:46:44,600
Well, you're quite right, of course, there are a number of other cases of interferences, radio and TV,

1529
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:51,600
and automobile engines. It's very interesting that the French cases, you don't have any radio interference,

1530
01:46:51,600 --> 01:46:56,600
but you have some of what Michel calls the hallucinated machine,

1531
01:46:56,600 --> 01:47:03,600
that he says, maybe perhaps human beings can have hallucinations, or what happens to automobile modus, and headlights, and so on.

1532
01:47:03,600 --> 01:47:08,600
You don't have any car radios, I guess you didn't have so many in France, or those.

1533
01:47:08,600 --> 01:47:13,600
Well, I'm particularly interested in that case, not because it's the only one of its kind,

1534
01:47:13,600 --> 01:47:18,600
but simply because we happened to investigate this when we were Mr. Mabinou.

1535
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:20,600
What is your conclusion?

1536
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:25,600
My conclusion is that this was an unidentified flying object.

1537
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:27,600
From? All right.

1538
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:29,600
Now, let's go and continue.

1539
01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:35,600
Yes, an unidentified flying object, probably extraterrestrial origin.

1540
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:38,600
Why extraterrestrial?

1541
01:47:38,600 --> 01:47:42,600
These phenomena, so far as I can find, could be explained fairly logically, terrestrially.

1542
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:50,600
A strong signal of any kind will blanket out a radio which has an A-V-C circuit in it to cut down the volume of other signals coming in.

1543
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:57,600
And as a matter of fact, all they have to have is a defective, I don't know what the motor was, I don't pretend to,

1544
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:02,600
but if they have a defective spark coil or something like that, that is perfectly capable of putting out a tremendous signal

1545
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:06,600
for a short distance that will blanket out everything.

1546
01:48:06,600 --> 01:48:08,600
And can't that radio?

1547
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:13,600
Yes, there's an A-V-C and automatic volume control circuit in a radio,

1548
01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:19,600
which means that when a strong signal comes in, there's a feedback cutting down the sensitivity of the radio.

1549
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:24,600
That can reduce the sensitivity until only the very strongest signal can come in.

1550
01:48:24,600 --> 01:48:27,600
Well, and good luck. But what was the object?

1551
01:48:27,600 --> 01:48:31,600
I think there isn't enough information there, I can't tell.

1552
01:48:31,600 --> 01:48:35,600
Well, the information is a brilliantly luminous yellowish white sphere,

1553
01:48:35,600 --> 01:48:40,600
considerably smaller than the moon and is dazzling to the eye as a gas mantle,

1554
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:45,600
hanging a few hundred feet over the summit of the hill two or three miles away.

1555
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:47,600
Was this in the daylight?

1556
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:49,600
Binauculars revealed no detail.

1557
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:51,600
Was this in the daylight?

1558
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:53,600
No, it was nine p.m.

1559
01:48:53,600 --> 01:49:00,600
The thing that I'm enthused about is the fact that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Meben,

1560
01:49:00,600 --> 01:49:06,600
and I don't think that the guy goes off half-cocked, I think, when he goes out there to investigate something.

1561
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:08,600
I think he does a fair job of it.

1562
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:12,600
But he automatically connects this radio signal with an object seen in the sky,

1563
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:15,600
which is not necessarily the case at all.

1564
01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:20,600
Well, you have two coincidences, and that is the appearance of the object

1565
01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:23,600
flashing out of the radio and moving away from the object,

1566
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:26,600
and the return of the radio reception on both radios.

1567
01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:32,600
There are some connections, or at least it isn't illogical to suppose there are some connections.

1568
01:49:32,600 --> 01:49:34,600
Ivan, what does this sound like to you?

1569
01:49:34,600 --> 01:49:38,600
Are you impressed with this particular sighting, this Canadian story?

1570
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:44,600
Not particularly, I'm interested, particularly interested in the fact that in connection with an object,

1571
01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:47,600
which doesn't look like anything with four...

1572
01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:51,600
They weren't just hunters, they were the press-abandoned, and nothing against hunters,

1573
01:49:51,600 --> 01:49:54,600
so there were people who were pretty high standing, were out on a hunting trip,

1574
01:49:54,600 --> 01:50:00,600
and they had not seen anything or did not know of anything like this object in the sky,

1575
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:05,600
and co-incident with it, there was radio blackout, if not actual radio signals.

1576
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:12,600
I just think it's interesting that any, let's call them UFOs, can do such a thing.

1577
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:16,600
Whether they come from this earth, or from another earth, or whether they're life forms,

1578
01:50:16,600 --> 01:50:20,600
or various different things, it could be, as I keep on saying, it could be all of these things,

1579
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:24,600
at the same time, one may be one kind, and one may be another.

1580
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:28,600
But I am interested because here is a case which is as good as we can get,

1581
01:50:28,600 --> 01:50:34,600
that something, at least radio, it has been some way connected, in my opinion, with radio interference,

1582
01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:37,600
that's pretty that way. That was a new one.

1583
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:42,600
But the number of cases of car engines stalling, and the lights going out,

1584
01:50:42,600 --> 01:50:49,600
and the radio going off in the motor cars, both in France, in Italy, and in Texas,

1585
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:54,600
leveled down and all that stuff, and after that was the chief of police who went out in level in Texas,

1586
01:50:54,600 --> 01:50:58,600
after some people had reported these facts, he said, oh, nonsense, what's going on?

1587
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:01,600
He went out and he rode around, and it happened to him too.

1588
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:08,600
You know, a great number of cases in this M. M. Michelle book here are from police flotters.

1589
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:12,600
And I know with people sitting around and saying, this is all nonsense.

1590
01:51:12,600 --> 01:51:14,600
There cannot be this number of...

1591
01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:17,600
Does that impress you the facts that are currently in the police record?

1592
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:23,600
Very much. I'm impressed with the police, and every country I've been in.

1593
01:51:23,600 --> 01:51:28,600
I'm impressed with the police too, but the fact that they have something in their book

1594
01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:33,600
about an incident that allegedly occurred doesn't mean a thing,

1595
01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:39,600
because if I go to the police department now, and I tell them that I was walking down

1596
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:48,600
West 48th Street near the Hudson River, and I saw two little green men,

1597
01:51:48,600 --> 01:51:50,600
I think they would put it on their books.

1598
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:51,600
Well, then...

1599
01:51:51,600 --> 01:51:54,600
They may laugh about it too, but I think they will record it.

1600
01:51:54,600 --> 01:51:57,600
I use the word police brother in the exact American sense.

1601
01:51:57,600 --> 01:51:58,600
I don't mean that.

1602
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:00,600
I mean, it's a quite different term.

1603
01:52:00,600 --> 01:52:04,600
There are quite a number of people who have given it as their opinion in here,

1604
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:07,600
that the person who said they saw things were not lying,

1605
01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:09,600
but that he was a serious-minded citizen,

1606
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:15,600
when whole villages said they'd seen the same thing at only a few feet distance

1607
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:19,600
himself to being there, a junior policeman, and his career says,

1608
01:52:19,600 --> 01:52:21,600
well, I think there must have been such a thing taking place,

1609
01:52:21,600 --> 01:52:26,600
because the police, after all, are trained to be a little bit more observant than other people.

1610
01:52:26,600 --> 01:52:32,600
They are a much better app to be able to discover a lie than the ordinary person,

1611
01:52:32,600 --> 01:52:34,600
and it's part of their training.

1612
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:37,600
We're not talking about ordinary things right now, Ivan.

1613
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:38,600
Well, but...

1614
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:44,600
You honestly think that policemen are trained to investigate little men?

1615
01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:49,600
I think they are trained, definitely, to investigate and to evaluate the various statements

1616
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:51,600
of various different people about an obvias.

1617
01:52:51,600 --> 01:52:54,600
You know the old story about 400 people seeing an accident and having 400 different stories?

1618
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:57,600
Well, it's the poor kid's police who has to go through all those stories

1619
01:52:57,600 --> 01:53:00,600
and try and find out what, as far as possible, what did happen.

1620
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:03,600
And I'd much rather have a policeman's evaluation,

1621
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:08,600
especially a working country policeman's evaluation of what the people say they saw in his village

1622
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:12,600
than I would take many bodies from anywhere else.

1623
01:53:12,600 --> 01:53:18,600
I think the police on the whole tend to be more reliable and know more about it, I believe.

1624
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:24,600
Therefore, if I see the road patrol officer says that he saw some...

1625
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:29,600
So I'd pick up my ear, say, oh my god, I mean he's a person in the police forces,

1626
01:53:29,600 --> 01:53:31,600
who's likely to be mistaken with anybody else.

1627
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:37,600
But when he's one in the group, I'll go and get his evaluation first.

1628
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:42,600
This is W.O.R. Radio, your station in New York, 710 and LaDyla.

1629
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:44,600
And the message now about no-dose.

1630
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:50,600
On Stefan Sampson, editorial director of Fantastic Universe.

1631
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:57,600
And Lester Del Ray, author of the book entitled Rockets Through Space, published by Winston.

1632
01:53:57,600 --> 01:54:03,600
Let me take just another moment. We are talking about a book this morning.

1633
01:54:03,600 --> 01:54:07,600
Isabel Davis and Lex Mevin, Lex is in Europe at the present time,

1634
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:10,600
so he was not able to join us this morning.

1635
01:54:10,600 --> 01:54:17,600
But Isabel Davis and Lex Mevin translated this book written by Aimee Michel.

1636
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:23,600
The title of it is Flying Saucers and the Straight Blind Mystery,

1637
01:54:23,600 --> 01:54:28,600
the publisher criterion available in your bookstores.

1638
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:33,600
I have read the book, Aimee, almost all of it,

1639
01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:38,600
but I know you've worked on it and you certainly know a lot more about it

1640
01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:41,600
than I do by just going through it once.

1641
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:48,600
I was wondering if you know offhand how many different stories are in the book

1642
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:52,600
about the little green men and about these unusual sightings.

1643
01:54:52,600 --> 01:54:59,600
Yes, I do. I counted them up and the European cases come to 25.

1644
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:03,600
That includes one that occurred in France in 1957.

1645
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:07,600
All the others are in 1954.

1646
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:10,600
One of them is a mention of one that occurred in Germany,

1647
01:55:10,600 --> 01:55:14,600
but most of the ones that he deals with are French cases.

1648
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:16,600
And some of them are extremely interesting.

1649
01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:21,600
One of the most interesting occurred at a place called Chabet.

1650
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:30,600
That's in the Department of Grosnes and that's near Lyon and Vellos in the southeast of France.

1651
01:55:30,600 --> 01:55:37,600
It was a Sunday afternoon and Mrs. Madame LeBriet had gone,

1652
01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:42,600
had lived in Vellos, had gone to visit her in L'Og, her parents' rather,

1653
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:45,600
in this little town of Chabet.

1654
01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:49,600
She was out in the afternoon picking mushrooms

1655
01:55:49,600 --> 01:55:54,600
and her husband was 200 yards away and there were some other people around.

1656
01:55:54,600 --> 01:55:57,600
And her dog began to bark.

1657
01:55:57,600 --> 01:56:02,600
As usual, there are three of these 25 cases in which the dog gave the warning

1658
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:06,600
of something odd was going along, that was happening.

1659
01:56:06,600 --> 01:56:10,600
And she looked over to her the heat seal and she saw there

1660
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:13,600
what she saw was first a small scare crow.

1661
01:56:13,600 --> 01:56:19,600
And then as she walked closer to it and the dog continued to bark and howl

1662
01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:23,600
and the other dogs in the village joined in on the howling,

1663
01:56:23,600 --> 01:56:26,600
she suddenly realized that this was not a scare crow.

1664
01:56:26,600 --> 01:56:31,600
It was coming towards her with a kind of a waddling or a swaying gate

1665
01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:35,600
and it was like something done up in a trench.

1666
01:56:35,600 --> 01:56:39,600
She described it as a trench leaps and diving suit.

1667
01:56:39,600 --> 01:56:45,600
And as it got closer, she saw the face behind a mask, a helmet or whatever it was,

1668
01:56:45,600 --> 01:56:49,600
was a, what she thought was two very large eyes.

1669
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:52,600
And she suddenly realized that she was looking at something

1670
01:56:52,600 --> 01:56:56,600
that was a little bit out of the ordinary and she gave a screen of terror

1671
01:56:56,600 --> 01:56:59,600
and dived into some bushes to hide from this thing.

1672
01:56:59,600 --> 01:57:06,600
Her husband heard her and came up and some other people came up also.

1673
01:57:06,600 --> 01:57:13,600
And the little creature then made its way to a circular, flat, metallic object

1674
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:16,600
that was resting some distance away in the heat seal, got in,

1675
01:57:16,600 --> 01:57:21,600
and the object took off at a very low angle from the ground

1676
01:57:21,600 --> 01:57:24,600
and went off into the distance very rapidly.

1677
01:57:24,600 --> 01:57:31,600
When they went to rum in the ground, they found that the heat was mashed down

1678
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:34,600
in a circle about the size of the object.

1679
01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:39,600
And also that there's some acacia trees there where one of the branches,

1680
01:57:39,600 --> 01:57:43,600
one or two of the branches that have been broken off as the object travel up

1681
01:57:43,600 --> 01:57:45,600
and it's as it left.

1682
01:57:45,600 --> 01:57:50,600
And also because it left the ground at such a low angle, some of the heat was mashed down.

1683
01:57:50,600 --> 01:57:56,600
And this is the man of the birth was in bed for several days

1684
01:57:56,600 --> 01:58:00,600
and I think of afterwards from the shock, that's right.

1685
01:58:00,600 --> 01:58:06,600
And it seems to me that the, oh yes, the dog was still scared to death three days later.

1686
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:09,600
Other people had heard the dog's howling and several other people,

1687
01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:13,600
like it doesn't say exactly exact number, had seen the thing take off.

1688
01:58:13,600 --> 01:58:16,600
And this is at four o'clock in the afternoon.

1689
01:58:16,600 --> 01:58:21,600
This is unusual because all but I think about three or four of these cases occurred at night

1690
01:58:21,600 --> 01:58:23,600
or at dusk or at dawn.

1691
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:25,600
Was there any peculiar odor?

1692
01:58:25,600 --> 01:58:27,600
No, there was no odor in this one.

1693
01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:29,600
Like the West Virginia monster that Ivan...

1694
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:31,600
No, there was no gas in this case.

1695
01:58:31,600 --> 01:58:32,600
No odor.

1696
01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:36,600
If there was any odor in the vegetation as a result of the thing being there,

1697
01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:39,600
it is not mentioned and probably would have been.

1698
01:58:39,600 --> 01:58:43,600
It did take off with a sharp pritzling of sizzling noise.

1699
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:49,600
Pritzling also unusual because then, not by no means all of these things are silent,

1700
01:58:49,600 --> 01:58:51,600
but a good many of them are.

1701
01:58:51,600 --> 01:58:54,600
And this is a very well-attended case.

1702
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:58,600
It was very widely publicized in France at the time.

1703
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:00,600
It was one of the most famous things.

1704
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:04,600
Is that in question the fact that the thing has been publicized a lot?

1705
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:05,600
No, no.

1706
01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:07,600
Because Howard and Angie has been publicized a lot in the French.

1707
01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:08,600
You're quite right.

1708
01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:09,600
It's an excellent point.

1709
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:10,600
And no, I shouldn't say that.

1710
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:13,600
I was simply saying that it was a well-known case.

1711
01:59:13,600 --> 01:59:17,600
It was better known than some of the others that he printed.

1712
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:19,600
It was a coach St. Lebs.

1713
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:22,600
Isabel, I know everybody sitting around here.

1714
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:26,600
No doubt has dozens of questions, but it's my good fortune to be the moderator

1715
01:59:26,600 --> 01:59:29,600
so I can be greedy and take up a couple of minutes.

1716
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:33,600
You mentioned about 25 cases in Europe.

1717
01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:39,600
25 cases in this book that he described are mentioned in detail.

1718
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:43,600
Now this does not include the cases that we mentioned in our appendix,

1719
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:45,600
in our, in this style.

1720
01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:47,600
How many additional cases do you have in the appendix?

1721
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:50,600
Well, we have about five or six, I say.

1722
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:52,600
And in the United States here?

1723
01:59:52,600 --> 01:59:53,600
In the States here, yes.

1724
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:54,600
Yes, oh yes.

1725
01:59:54,600 --> 02:00:01,600
These are unrecognized cases reported by little men and humanoids in the November flap.

1726
02:00:01,600 --> 02:00:06,600
That's what the appendix covers, is that, is the last November wave of sightings and reports.

1727
02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:08,600
Now we don't accept all of these.

1728
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:14,600
There are several of them that are of the contact type and we are very dubious about them.

1729
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:18,600
But I was referring to the French cases described by Michel.

1730
02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:20,600
Now of course this is by no means all of them.

1731
02:00:20,600 --> 02:00:23,600
There must be probably at least a hundred.

1732
02:00:23,600 --> 02:00:27,600
It's a little hard to count them because sometimes you'll have an author

1733
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:33,600
who says there were several other cases, but he doesn't say exactly how many in a given period of time.

1734
02:00:33,600 --> 02:00:36,600
But we certainly have a hundred at least.

1735
02:00:36,600 --> 02:00:40,600
One of you could tell us something about the author, Amy Michel.

1736
02:00:40,600 --> 02:00:42,600
He's an engineer.

1737
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:44,600
He is an engineer.

1738
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:48,600
What kind of engineer?

1739
02:00:48,600 --> 02:00:51,600
I believe he's an acoustical engineer.

1740
02:00:51,600 --> 02:00:54,600
He has made quite a study of this.

1741
02:00:54,600 --> 02:01:00,600
As you know he had another book out, The Truth About Flying Saucers, published two years ago.

1742
02:01:00,600 --> 02:01:06,600
And he has been in quite close contact with a number of astronomers and so on.

1743
02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:10,600
He's a technical man, not a theoretical scientist.

1744
02:01:10,600 --> 02:01:15,600
Are there a number of French scientists and astronomers who believe in flying saucers?

1745
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:17,600
There certainly are.

1746
02:01:17,600 --> 02:01:20,600
I don't know all of their names, but some of them have taken a quite a few years.

1747
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:24,600
You say this is more prevalent in France than what it is in the States?

1748
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:26,600
Somewhat more so, yes.

1749
02:01:26,600 --> 02:01:33,600
I believe that they are a little more willing to come out and express their interest publicly in France.

1750
02:01:33,600 --> 02:01:35,600
I would get this impression from the book.

1751
02:01:35,600 --> 02:01:42,600
Is this possibly why we have 25 European cases in the book?

1752
02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:43,600
Because the scientists are lost.

1753
02:01:43,600 --> 02:01:45,600
Is there more of the leaders there?

1754
02:01:45,600 --> 02:01:51,600
No, I think one reason for this is that France is a smaller country perhaps, or perhaps there's more landings.

1755
02:01:51,600 --> 02:01:54,600
Does that mean we could have more because it's a smaller country?

1756
02:01:54,600 --> 02:01:58,600
Do you think this would be conducive to landings of saucers?

1757
02:01:58,600 --> 02:02:04,600
No, I think it would probably be conducive to learning about the cases.

1758
02:02:04,600 --> 02:02:06,600
Population, population.

1759
02:02:06,600 --> 02:02:08,600
Population is much greater.

1760
02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:12,600
Much more evenly distributed than here.

1761
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:17,600
Looking at those maps of France, it just seems as if they have a village every mile and a half,

1762
02:02:17,600 --> 02:02:19,600
and every village has been named.

1763
02:02:19,600 --> 02:02:25,600
Every stick and stone has been named, and they've all been lived in for hundreds and thousands of years.

1764
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:28,600
It's perfectly fascinating to study those maps.

1765
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:36,600
No, I don't mean that we should have more, but if they occur, I think there's more chance of somebody seeing them

1766
02:02:36,600 --> 02:02:39,600
because the density is more even.

1767
02:02:39,600 --> 02:02:41,600
Wouldn't you say as well as greater?

1768
02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:43,600
Yes, but more evenly distributed.

1769
02:02:43,600 --> 02:02:50,600
I don't mean there are no relatively desolate areas, but it's certainly even there than it is in this country.

1770
02:02:50,600 --> 02:02:54,600
Isabelle, I want to ask you a question that's been on my mind for some time.

1771
02:02:54,600 --> 02:02:58,600
As I say, I've never had really the opportunity of talking to you for any length of time.

1772
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:05,600
Usually we've had a large group around, and you were not the main guest those particular times, and tonight you are.

1773
02:03:05,600 --> 02:03:07,600
I would like to ask you this.

1774
02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:17,600
It seems to me that you certainly are implying that you do, in fact you actually made the statement in answer to a question that I raised early this morning.

1775
02:03:17,600 --> 02:03:21,600
You do believe that there are little men.

1776
02:03:21,600 --> 02:03:27,600
We're using that as a term. It's possibly the wrong term, but I think our listeners will understand what I'm referring to.

1777
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:35,600
You believe that there are little men arriving in this country and other countries and possibly they come from other planets.

1778
02:03:35,600 --> 02:03:45,600
If this is true, and I don't think at least you haven't told me up to the present moment about any particular evidence that you have,

1779
02:03:45,600 --> 02:03:51,600
I don't think that you have too much evidence to back up your belief. You're certainly entitled to it.

1780
02:03:51,600 --> 02:04:00,600
But my question is this. If you believe in the possibility of the little green men, or rather the little men arriving here,

1781
02:04:00,600 --> 02:04:11,600
why is it that you don't believe the Menger story? Why don't you believe, usually I have a list of 40 to throw at you,

1782
02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:17,600
but let's just take one more, any of the contactee stories. Why don't you believe those?

1783
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:26,600
This is a very interesting question and I'm extremely glad you asked it, because there is just no comparison between the two types of stories.

1784
02:04:26,600 --> 02:04:30,600
If you take them as a group, you will find...

1785
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:33,600
You can take them as individuals if you want. You're welcome to speak with me.

1786
02:04:33,600 --> 02:04:42,600
Yes, but I have studied them as a group and individually, and also I have studied the little men reports as a group.

1787
02:04:42,600 --> 02:04:49,600
Now let me tell you a few of the ways in which they're different. In the first place, the all the little men stories,

1788
02:04:49,600 --> 02:05:04,600
and all the little men encounters, I will say, are isolated, single experiences in which the witnesses have no forewarning and to which there is no follow-up.

1789
02:05:04,600 --> 02:05:12,600
This is in contrast to the contact cases where many of the contactees claim they have been contacted repeatedly,

1790
02:05:12,600 --> 02:05:18,600
and many of them report that they have premonitions or they have desires to be contacted,

1791
02:05:18,600 --> 02:05:29,600
or they have strange invokes to go out on a hill and sure enough they go out and there's a sorcerer in the space brother to talk to them.

1792
02:05:29,600 --> 02:05:34,600
You're referring not to intuition, but to telepathic communication.

1793
02:05:34,600 --> 02:05:41,600
Telepathic, yes. And so sometimes they will just say that I had this strange urge, I felt I must go there.

1794
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:49,600
Now this doesn't happen to the people who are little men. It comes to them as a bolt out of the blue for which they're totally unprepared.

1795
02:05:49,600 --> 02:05:55,600
Mrs. Simmons, who was driving along a road in Georgia with her husband at night,

1796
02:05:55,600 --> 02:05:59,600
and so I had a word of, what was it she thought those words would begin with?

1797
02:05:59,600 --> 02:06:09,600
I forget anyway, it was a group of four little men, and she had just barely had time to swear the card or pass them so she wouldn't hit one of them.

1798
02:06:09,600 --> 02:06:18,600
And her husband woke up, he was asleep in the front seat behind beside her, and he woke up because the swear was so sharp and sudden,

1799
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:23,600
and he wanted to stop and go back, and she said, no, I wouldn't go back to the world.

1800
02:06:23,600 --> 02:06:27,600
She was terrified. This is another way in which they're different.

1801
02:06:27,600 --> 02:06:36,600
With very few exceptions, the people who encountered little men are frightened, they're frightened out of their wits.

1802
02:06:36,600 --> 02:06:46,600
And in the famous Hopkinsville case, where I personally talked to a number of the people who had investigated the story after the report was made,

1803
02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:53,600
every one of those skeptics said one thing, and the people who didn't believe this story for one minute,

1804
02:06:53,600 --> 02:07:01,600
as one woman skeptic expected to me, she said, there was no doubt about one thing, she said those people were scared, green.

1805
02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:11,600
They don't want any repetition of the event. They aren't like the contactees to go out and hope that they're going to meet their faith by their friends again.

1806
02:07:11,600 --> 02:07:15,600
They wish the original experience had never happened.

1807
02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:22,600
And I think I'm asking questions that possibly some of the eight listeners would have in mind too.

1808
02:07:22,600 --> 02:07:31,600
Why does this make it more legitimate? Because the person is scared instead of happy about this unusual experience.

1809
02:07:31,600 --> 02:07:39,600
Why do you feel if I called you up some morning and I said, look, I just saw a little man, I'm frightened to death as if I don't know what to do.

1810
02:07:39,600 --> 02:07:47,600
Why don't you believe that? Rather than if I called you and said, you know, I had the pleasure of going to Mars in a flying saucer in Isabel.

1811
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:51,600
It's a fantastic trip. I'd like to tell you about it. Why don't you believe that story?

1812
02:07:51,600 --> 02:08:04,600
Well, I think there's a basic, one can't talk about the laws of human psychology, but it certainly points to a good deal of experience and not a good deal of observation.

1813
02:08:04,600 --> 02:08:16,600
The point is that the thing, the person, the creature that is different, that doesn't look like anything we have ever seen before, arouses alarm.

1814
02:08:16,600 --> 02:08:23,600
It's the outlander, the stranger, which goes back to the days of the tribal organization.

1815
02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:28,600
And the man from across the hill, the neighboring tribe, he was a menace.

1816
02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:36,600
He was founded even in a business office. The new man comes in to be the manager of the new secretary, the president's new secretary.

1817
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:40,600
But he thinks of menace. It's a new, different, strange person.

1818
02:08:40,600 --> 02:08:52,600
And these creatures that are so, that are from outer space, are intelligences, powerful, able, capable, obviously technically far beyond us,

1819
02:08:52,600 --> 02:09:02,600
it's very natural that the site would be aroused, especially if we accept the reports as the way they look and act.

1820
02:09:02,600 --> 02:09:05,600
They're just different, they're just different, unearthly.

1821
02:09:05,600 --> 02:09:06,600
Now, the...

1822
02:09:06,600 --> 02:09:08,600
Well, that isn't answering my question, I don't think.

1823
02:09:08,600 --> 02:09:10,600
Well, go on with your question.

1824
02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:20,600
Well, in other words, I want to know why you feel that if a person has been frightened by a very unusual, by a very strange looking little man,

1825
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:30,600
why you are willing to believe this is legitimate, whereas if somebody reports to you that they saw a person with long golden hair and golden eyes,

1826
02:09:30,600 --> 02:09:36,600
and it's a Saturnian, and they came down in a saucer, why don't you believe that?

1827
02:09:36,600 --> 02:09:43,600
Why must people, why must life on other planets be different than what it is on this planet?

1828
02:09:43,600 --> 02:09:48,600
Well, it's pretty different on this planet too, you know, and it seems to be...

1829
02:09:48,600 --> 02:09:56,600
Well, we are told by the space brothers and their human friends that life everywhere in the universe,

1830
02:09:56,600 --> 02:10:00,600
and remember, they claim to have been everywhere in the universe.

1831
02:10:00,600 --> 02:10:02,600
They claim to be complete travelers.

1832
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:06,600
They claim to always tell the truth, and they claim to have perfect memories.

1833
02:10:06,600 --> 02:10:11,600
And they say that nothing is really very different, that everybody looks about the same,

1834
02:10:11,600 --> 02:10:18,600
and that man would be able to breathe the air of any planet in the universe if he lived right.

1835
02:10:18,600 --> 02:10:23,600
Now, this is a picture of the uniform universe, which doesn't satisfy me.

1836
02:10:23,600 --> 02:10:30,600
Why is the Earth, this little island of extreme diversity in a universe otherwise populated

1837
02:10:30,600 --> 02:10:36,600
by handsome, blonde, naughty, with page boy hairbob?

1838
02:10:36,600 --> 02:10:39,600
I don't understand it, I mean, this doesn't make sense to me.

1839
02:10:39,600 --> 02:10:45,600
Why do, are we, is everything so different here than everything so alike elsewhere?

1840
02:10:45,600 --> 02:10:56,600
I kind of go along with you, but after seeing this cardboard drawing, this cutout that was made by Lex Mebben,

1841
02:10:56,600 --> 02:11:05,600
gee, I'm sort of frightened, I'd rather see these fellows with the long golden beards and the long hair.

1842
02:11:05,600 --> 02:11:07,600
I mean, I think they'd be more pleasant.

1843
02:11:07,600 --> 02:11:08,600
They would be.

1844
02:11:08,600 --> 02:11:10,600
So it's Howard Meyers.

1845
02:11:10,600 --> 02:11:15,600
So with all of the believers, this is one of the reasons why these space brothers are so popular,

1846
02:11:15,600 --> 02:11:24,600
because as we stand in a thresholded space with the possibility of encountering alien intelligence superior to ours,

1847
02:11:24,600 --> 02:11:29,600
where there's a deep seated here in human beings, I can quite understand it,

1848
02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:34,600
of what these people are going to be like and how aren't they going to be a menace to us.

1849
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:43,600
Now, when you turn them all into very handsome, beautiful people who are very much like us and very kindly, but never,

1850
02:11:43,600 --> 02:11:49,600
you've humanized them, you take the thread away, you draw the sting of the alien spaceman.

1851
02:11:49,600 --> 02:11:55,600
And of course this is a much more popular thing than the strange little men whose behavior and actions,

1852
02:11:55,600 --> 02:11:58,600
whose appearance and behavior are so mysterious.

1853
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:01,600
I think this is quite comprehensible.

1854
02:12:02,600 --> 02:12:06,600
Everybody's hand is up, including Jack King's.

1855
02:12:06,600 --> 02:12:16,600
There's a lovely statement in the General Chassan's introduction to Michel's book,

1856
02:12:16,600 --> 02:12:22,600
which I think could be quoted very appropriately here and now.

1857
02:12:22,600 --> 02:12:29,600
General Chassan, General Air Defense Coordinator, Allied Air Forces of Central Europe,

1858
02:12:29,600 --> 02:12:33,600
that is NATO, one of those gullible persons, you know, Lester,

1859
02:12:33,600 --> 02:12:42,600
says in his introduction something which I think is rather appropriate to propose what Isabella said,

1860
02:12:42,600 --> 02:12:47,600
what intelligence is it that guides these objects and what methods does it use?

1861
02:12:47,600 --> 02:12:50,600
To these major questions we can give no answer at present.

1862
02:12:50,600 --> 02:12:53,600
We must be satisfied with hypothesis.

1863
02:12:53,600 --> 02:12:55,600
Human intelligence, perhaps?

1864
02:12:55,600 --> 02:13:02,600
Have recent events not shown us that enormous scientific progress can be made in record time and in absolute secrecy?

1865
02:13:02,600 --> 02:13:05,600
A disturbing idea for the West, whose limitations we know,

1866
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:13,600
but a very improbable explanation because the object seem to utilize forms of energy that mankind of any nation, whatever,

1867
02:13:13,600 --> 02:13:15,600
is still far from mastering.

1868
02:13:15,600 --> 02:13:17,600
Non-human intelligence?

1869
02:13:17,600 --> 02:13:20,600
Including, let us say, little men?

1870
02:13:20,600 --> 02:13:21,600
Why not?

1871
02:13:21,600 --> 02:13:27,600
Is it a long time since Ptolemy placed the Earth in the center of a solar system that was itself the universe?

1872
02:13:27,600 --> 02:13:35,600
Today, Eddington could not affirm that our race is undoubtedly supreme and that human intelligence rules the universe.

1873
02:13:35,600 --> 02:13:40,600
We have become more modest and willingly admit that possibly there may exist,

1874
02:13:40,600 --> 02:13:46,600
perhaps not even far away from us, beings whose civilization has far outstripped our own.

1875
02:13:46,600 --> 02:13:49,600
Let us deny nothing a priori-

1876
02:13:49,600 --> 02:13:51,600
That's why you can't believe in us.

1877
02:13:51,600 --> 02:14:02,600
Unlike the Queen and Lewis Carroll story, I can neither disbelieve nor believe in 17 impossible things all at the same time before breakfast.

1878
02:14:02,600 --> 02:14:03,600
There's only eight of them.

1879
02:14:03,600 --> 02:14:06,600
Well, all right, eight. They've improved on us in third time.

1880
02:14:06,600 --> 02:14:09,600
We've got a couple of telegrams.

1881
02:14:09,600 --> 02:14:11,600
Want to read those, Lester?

1882
02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:16,600
You want to get them ready and I'll take a moment to take care of a little business first.

1883
02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:21,600
This is WOR Radio, your station in New York, Long John, with the party line.

1884
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:27,600
How long have any of you been in contact with these little objects? What do they eat?

1885
02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:35,600
Yeah, the point there, just a moment to say this, that water is a very rare substance probably in the universe.

1886
02:14:35,600 --> 02:14:43,600
And there seemed to be some attraction, I believe, between water, especially pure water on the surface of this earth, and these little fellas.

1887
02:14:43,600 --> 02:14:45,600
I don't know what they eat. I don't think anybody's ever suggested it.

1888
02:14:45,600 --> 02:14:54,600
No, there's never been a case reported of any food being consumed and there are perhaps half a dozen of the warhead cases.

1889
02:14:54,600 --> 02:14:57,600
I have never counted them up.

1890
02:14:57,600 --> 02:15:00,600
Then there's one, would you mind reading that one, please?

1891
02:15:00,600 --> 02:15:06,600
This is from Hackensack, New Jersey, the center of culture.

1892
02:15:06,600 --> 02:15:13,600
Long John, enjoy your programs as a rule. Tonight, very enjoyable, sedate and peaceable.

1893
02:15:13,600 --> 02:15:18,600
Thank goodness the belligerent, ill-mannered and ill-tempered Ben is absent.

1894
02:15:18,600 --> 02:15:28,600
Good thing he didn't carry a gun last night, or on other appearances on your show, he'd have more in the graveyard than the subjects discussed on last night's show.

1895
02:15:28,600 --> 02:15:30,600
Signed Taz Blakesley.

1896
02:15:30,600 --> 02:15:32,600
Thank you, Ben, for reading that telegram.

1897
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:34,600
Would you mind reading that one?

1898
02:15:34,600 --> 02:15:39,600
I have a fan, too. This one's from Hackensville, New Jersey.

1899
02:15:39,600 --> 02:15:41,600
Signed Howard Lawrence.

1900
02:15:41,600 --> 02:15:49,600
Semantizing shrimp is lousing up works. Throw him out by his black beard and night will hold ray of hope again.

1901
02:15:49,600 --> 02:15:53,600
On with the little green buggers from the Reynolds assembly line.

1902
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:56,600
Ben in Detroit.

1903
02:15:56,600 --> 02:16:00,600
I have something here that I'd love to hear.

1904
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:05,600
I think you'll be happy to hear this telegram, Isabel. We have a fan for you, too.

1905
02:16:05,600 --> 02:16:07,600
Oh, how nice. We did it so well.

1906
02:16:07,600 --> 02:16:09,600
The lady is telling the truth.

1907
02:16:09,600 --> 02:16:20,600
The little green men have been seen by Sir Arthur Cohen Doyle, Arthur, and also stated in Irish folk law.

1908
02:16:21,600 --> 02:16:27,600
The person that sent that telegram, your fan, Isabel Davis, the mystic barber.

1909
02:16:27,600 --> 02:16:30,600
The number is Taylor 78490.

1910
02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:38,600
Well, all I can say is life has little more to offer. This is a climax, which I wish I would never come to, and I'm sure.

1911
02:16:38,600 --> 02:16:40,600
I appreciate it.

1912
02:16:40,600 --> 02:16:43,600
I have not lived in vain, don't you think, have so?

1913
02:16:43,600 --> 02:16:45,600
I agree, Isabel.

1914
02:16:45,600 --> 02:16:48,600
I think about we're going to have this laminated fire, so you may have this.

1915
02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:50,600
Oh, that's how I want to frame it.

1916
02:16:50,600 --> 02:16:54,600
I have one from one of my favorite cities in the United States.

1917
02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:58,600
Oh, Ben will love this. Philadelphia, from Rob Roy Hunt.

1918
02:16:58,600 --> 02:17:05,600
I have had life forms photographed also. I come from the planet Earth. I was photographed recently.

1919
02:17:05,600 --> 02:17:09,600
I consider myself to be a life form and a broadcast.

1920
02:17:09,600 --> 02:17:11,600
I think that's nice.

1921
02:17:11,600 --> 02:17:14,600
My point is that it's John's point. Don't be too sure.

1922
02:17:14,600 --> 02:17:19,600
Oh, yes, here's one I'd like to answer, John, if I may. It's from Garrison, New York.

1923
02:17:19,600 --> 02:17:21,600
Our friend M. Belcher.

1924
02:17:21,600 --> 02:17:25,600
All Western Union operators are on the job stop.

1925
02:17:25,600 --> 02:17:29,600
Sensational. All of them. Don't any of them ever sleep?

1926
02:17:29,600 --> 02:17:32,600
But you don't answer my questions.

1927
02:17:32,600 --> 02:17:35,600
Among the elements are any equal. One answer.

1928
02:17:35,600 --> 02:17:40,600
If not, why expect it of man? Answer. I am listening.

1929
02:17:40,600 --> 02:17:44,600
Well, Mr. Belcher, all I can say is you haven't asked the question yet.

1930
02:17:44,600 --> 02:17:52,600
You said, among elements are any equal. Equal to what? Equal is an arithmetical term, not necessarily applying to physical things.

1931
02:17:52,600 --> 02:18:02,600
You said equal. I trust that what you mean is, are they similar to a point of almost exact similarity, in which case, of course, not.

1932
02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:04,600
That's why they're separate elements.

1933
02:18:04,600 --> 02:18:10,600
But on the other hand, since a man contains quite a few of them, how could he be equal to anything, either, if they aren't equal?

1934
02:18:10,600 --> 02:18:17,600
This is one of those meaningless questions which sounds very beautiful, but cannot be answered. I shall not try to answer it now or later.

1935
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:23,600
M. Belcher. Mr. Belcher, I think he's the president of Canadian club.

1936
02:18:23,600 --> 02:18:27,600
Belcher.

1937
02:18:27,600 --> 02:18:29,600
Finpoint Club, yes.

1938
02:18:29,600 --> 02:18:37,600
Another from Mr. Belcher. My third message tonight. Western Union operators on the job, comforting thought.

1939
02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:48,600
They take my messages. Nice. You ask for questions, you don't answer mine. Why not? You haven't mentioned Charles Ford. Why not?

1940
02:18:48,600 --> 02:18:51,600
Mr. Ford was mentioned about four times this morning.

1941
02:18:51,600 --> 02:18:54,600
Did he mention us?

1942
02:18:54,600 --> 02:18:55,600
Charles Ford, of course.

1943
02:18:55,600 --> 02:18:57,600
I mean, this isn't equal.

1944
02:18:57,600 --> 02:19:07,600
But are you only blind flying on a saucer? You don't answer questions. Why not, sincerely? And Belcher?

1945
02:19:07,600 --> 02:19:15,600
Oh, I think you have now answered that, and I think Mr. Ford has been mentioned, and I hope he may be mentioned again before the end of the evening.

1946
02:19:15,600 --> 02:19:22,600
May I ask Lester another question? Lester, I didn't know if I've asked you before. What is the difference between a duck?

1947
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:26,600
Well, they're convergent, you see, on a certain point.

1948
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:31,600
There's an answer. There's none. Both leagues is each alike.

1949
02:19:31,600 --> 02:19:38,600
Do you know the civil service question? How far does a dog run into a wood?

1950
02:19:38,600 --> 02:19:46,600
There's an answer to that, and you can get him out of the civil service. It runs halfway into the wood because after that point, it's running out of the wood.

1951
02:19:46,600 --> 02:19:48,600
Well, I'm not glad it makes sense.

1952
02:19:48,600 --> 02:19:52,600
Which country's civil service can you get into on a duck?

1953
02:19:52,600 --> 02:19:54,600
The Americans.

1954
02:19:54,600 --> 02:20:01,600
One question, the other one, was how long is a piece of string? It's twice as long as half that piece of string.

1955
02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:05,600
Besides, who said the dog ran that far into the wood? He might have wanted to go on and on out again.

1956
02:20:05,600 --> 02:20:10,600
There's a man that patiently waiting to bring up very, very exciting message.

1957
02:20:11,600 --> 02:20:26,600
Let me first of all remind our listeners, just in case they've joined us during the past hour or so, we're talking this morning with Isabel Davis of CSI, that's Civilian Saucer Intelligence.

1958
02:20:26,600 --> 02:20:50,600
Ivan Sanderson, the zoologist, Ben Isquith, Ben is the cybernetician, Hans Stefan Sanderson, a fantastic universe, editorial director of Fantastic Universe, and we have with us Lester Del Ray, the shrimp man with the beard, according to our friends in Hackettsville, New Jersey.

1959
02:20:50,600 --> 02:20:59,600
The flamantizing shrimp man's right, and his mother came in, Evelyn Del Ray came in with him tonight from their home.

1960
02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:03,600
Hans, who had something you wanted to add before the coffee break?

1961
02:21:03,600 --> 02:21:15,600
Yes, I had one or two points. One, I want to correct the record. Isabel actually has two fans, Arthur Angelouche.

1962
02:21:16,600 --> 02:21:20,600
Oh, must you do this to me?

1963
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:29,600
Arthur Angelouche, a gentleman out on the West Coast, who is one of the contractors, was rather disturbed.

1964
02:21:29,600 --> 02:21:45,600
Isabel will remember by her article in our magazine sometime back, and wrote rather lengthy article answering it, which I was unfortunately unable to use for editorial and not for doctrinal reasons.

1965
02:21:45,600 --> 02:22:05,600
But in the course of that, he paid eloquent tribute to her research ability and concluded with the hope, as Isabel will recall, that the day might come when elimination would come to her because Arthur Dorn needed its pause.

1966
02:22:05,600 --> 02:22:08,600
I just wanted to correct the record.

1967
02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:26,600
Before, however, I ask Isabel a question. I do want to say that I hope she is still listening, that I have greetings actually to all of you from one of the eight, or was it nine?

1968
02:22:26,600 --> 02:22:30,600
Eight listeners, nine listeners that John had.

1969
02:22:30,600 --> 02:22:43,600
The right-riven, Andy Rock Williams Stewart, founder and bishop of Mount Zion Evangelical Science Church, who is celebrating her the 14th anniversary of her consecration to the bishopric tomorrow.

1970
02:22:43,600 --> 02:22:54,600
Bishop Williams Stewart is one of the faithful listeners to this program. I know this because we have talked about long done so many times.

1971
02:22:54,600 --> 02:23:06,600
Another of the eight listeners is a distinguished Arab gentleman who insists that he hates long done because he keeps him awake.

1972
02:23:06,600 --> 02:23:14,600
Now, I have one question for Isabel and I want to come back afterwards to something else, but in the meantime I have one question to ask Isabel.

1973
02:23:14,600 --> 02:23:22,600
There is another distinguished clubwoman from Brooklyn, Mrs. Eberwannis. I just want to know that.

1974
02:23:22,600 --> 02:23:28,600
Well, I mean, I felt that it was only appropriate that you should mention her, you see.

1975
02:23:28,600 --> 02:23:45,600
I do have one question, however, and this is Isabel, quite some time ago, before we got lost in all sorts of extraneous, non-little man topics, you were talking about the fact that little men didn't speak.

1976
02:23:45,600 --> 02:24:13,600
Wasn't there an incident in New Jersey some time ago where a little man came about four and a half feet tall, came dressed in a rather dirty gray, sort of, not a Venusian suit, but some sort of a little man equivalent.

1977
02:24:13,600 --> 02:24:36,600
He came to this people in Jersey, he was seen, and with typical, I'm sorry to say Ivan, with typical New Jersey hospitality, sorry, let the two, the man, the husband promptly met at the door and went out of shotgun, but shouting angrily,

1978
02:24:36,600 --> 02:24:39,600
you get out of here, get out of here.

1979
02:24:39,600 --> 02:25:00,600
And the little man said, I'm sorry, he said, haltingly, that he didn't want anything, he just wanted their dog, at which later, possibly apocryphally, the wife described it, having said that he would have been perfectly welcome to a dog,

1980
02:25:00,600 --> 02:25:14,600
and he was not a Venusian anyway, but isn't this a specific instance of a little man being described as not making noises, but actually saying, connected to the words?

1981
02:25:14,600 --> 02:25:22,600
That is true, what he was reported to say was, as follows, we are peaceful people, we don't want no trouble, we just want your dog.

1982
02:25:22,600 --> 02:25:35,600
Yes, he was smaller than that, he was reported to be, I think, only about three feet high, and he was in green with gloves and a shiny button at the end of the gloves, and buttons down the front little green hat.

1983
02:25:35,600 --> 02:25:57,600
Now, we have been a little further investigation of that case, I remember CSI, and it appears that it is not valid, I can't quote the proof, I'm sorry, I don't like to strip teases because it sounds so much like the contact people, but it's fairly certain that this story was invented.

1984
02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:00,600
Or it could have been a little boy, actually.

1985
02:26:00,600 --> 02:26:04,600
No, I know what is about us talking about how.

1986
02:26:04,600 --> 02:26:10,600
It is peculiar, John, that the way the dogs do come in here.

1987
02:26:10,600 --> 02:26:16,600
Why, you put several cases in the Michelle's book about dog mapping green, why?

1988
02:26:16,600 --> 02:26:20,600
They always, again, they want to take the dog.

1989
02:26:20,600 --> 02:26:45,600
Well, there aren't so many of them, though, is that case, I think you're referring to the one in Tennessee, down to Tennessee, where the boy went out very early in the morning and said he saw this thing, and the people came out of it and tried to take his dog, which may not forget, and the dog barked and shied away so that it's a different dog.

1990
02:26:45,600 --> 02:26:46,600
Any pitting in it?

1991
02:26:46,600 --> 02:26:53,600
Yes, I think a bit of space first, and this is a very uncertain case, we can't decide about this one.

1992
02:26:53,600 --> 02:27:15,600
But they did find this boy, if I remember right, came back and made this statement, he was very, very shaken, and they got the local citizenry and they went out to the field, and to their real thunder-sucker amazement they found there an area, just as the boy described this alleged machine or whatever it was, object, had been lying, although the oblong was a little bit smaller.

1993
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:23,600
He insisted this, he was ten years old, and he insisted that the thing there, it hung over the edge of this, and it was very bigger than that, but it sort of came up off the ground all around.

1994
02:27:23,600 --> 02:27:32,600
They were, that's about anything I think about that case, which made it look, because the adults did see something in the field which couldn't have been put there, except by a considerable amount of trouble.

1995
02:27:32,600 --> 02:27:33,600
Did he have post-hood, that one?

1996
02:27:33,600 --> 02:27:35,600
No, that one didn't have post-hood, no.

1997
02:27:35,600 --> 02:27:36,600
Another very odd one.

1998
02:27:36,600 --> 02:27:44,600
Of course, then there are a number of cases where the dogs have given warning of something without any attempting to make them come out.

1999
02:27:44,600 --> 02:27:49,600
I'm going to have to interrupt, I'm sorry.

2000
02:27:49,600 --> 02:27:56,600
I imagine that J. Robert Mantler and our good friend Dave Field, that they will be with us in a couple of minutes.

2001
02:27:56,600 --> 02:28:10,600
They evidently are down in the corner of the room that's been allotted to me, and I have soapbox and a couple of other fine pieces of equipment that I'm setting up for my office.

2002
02:28:10,600 --> 02:28:18,600
Funny thing of all, I had a chair, it was a nice chair, and I'm not kidding.

2003
02:28:18,600 --> 02:28:23,600
I put it in my office last night, and tonight I came back, the chair is gone.

2004
02:28:23,600 --> 02:28:28,600
Somebody gave me a box, you know where it went?

2005
02:28:28,600 --> 02:28:32,600
Well, I have to find it, because I had my name on the back of it.

2006
02:28:32,600 --> 02:28:38,600
So I'm going to buy a chain, a regular bicycle chain, and I'm going to chain it to the radiator.

2007
02:28:38,600 --> 02:28:40,600
If I possibly come back in the radiator, it'll be gone.

2008
02:28:40,600 --> 02:28:50,600
I'll chair up John, because I know a gentleman I can introduce you to, and you could know his name very well, who was a vice president in a certain large radio and television network,

2009
02:28:50,600 --> 02:28:58,600
and he came one morning and his office had gone. His secretary's office had all the furnitures, they tore the whole center of the building out and it had gone.

2010
02:28:58,600 --> 02:29:01,600
He also received a severance paycheck when he went downstairs.

2011
02:29:01,600 --> 02:29:04,600
Maybe my check is there, who knows.

2012
02:29:04,600 --> 02:29:07,600
Well, they touch your lock on the door, John, that's the time to get out.

2013
02:29:07,600 --> 02:29:11,600
They just take the chair away now.

2014
02:29:11,600 --> 02:29:14,600
The touch of Eddie Haywood.

2015
02:29:14,600 --> 02:29:25,600
Ms. Davis and Lex Mebin translated the book by Amy Michelle entitled Flying Saucers in the Street Line Mystery.

2016
02:29:25,600 --> 02:29:28,600
It's published by Criterion.

2017
02:29:28,600 --> 02:29:38,600
Ivan Sanderson noted zoologist as with us this morning, Hans Steffen Sanderson, editorial director of Fantastic Universe is with us.

2018
02:29:38,600 --> 02:29:48,600
Lester Delray, Mr. Delray is the author of the book entitled Rockets Through Space, published by Winston and Ben Iskowitz, the cybernetician.

2019
02:29:48,600 --> 02:29:54,600
Our engineers, Jack Keen and Russell Tinklepaw. Ben?

2020
02:29:54,600 --> 02:29:57,600
Well, I'm going over Michelle's book.

2021
02:29:57,600 --> 02:30:02,600
I was very interested in this idea that he put forth a lot of thought.

2022
02:30:02,600 --> 02:30:14,600
The idea that a number of these sources, citing that if you put them on a map, particularly on French maps, when you get them occurring in certain time intervals,

2023
02:30:14,600 --> 02:30:19,600
that they all seem to fall more or less in groups of three, making a straight line.

2024
02:30:19,600 --> 02:30:23,600
Not all of them were three, there were some that were four in size.

2025
02:30:23,600 --> 02:30:25,600
Nine was a lot.

2026
02:30:25,600 --> 02:30:30,600
And he goes on and calls these also tenac.

2027
02:30:30,600 --> 02:30:38,600
And I seem to get the idea that because this has happened in the mapping of these sources, citing,

2028
02:30:38,600 --> 02:30:50,600
and because he comes out in the statement that this is beyond mere chance that a significant number of these sightings that occur more or less in the same time interval should fall on a straight line,

2029
02:30:50,600 --> 02:30:58,600
that these things are somehow real or there's a pattern or a guiding intelligence to the way these things are operated,

2030
02:30:58,600 --> 02:31:06,600
and that you could not get these straight line alignments by mere chance, which is something I don't understand.

2031
02:31:06,600 --> 02:31:15,600
And then on page 257, which I understand is Mr. Meben's contribution or part of it for the book,

2032
02:31:15,600 --> 02:31:23,600
there is some sort of mathematical explanation of this orthophonic line theory, which I don't understand at all.

2033
02:31:23,600 --> 02:31:33,600
And I'm quite at sea, even to the type of notation you, but was this from Michelle's notation or was this Mr. Meben's or...

2034
02:31:33,600 --> 02:31:37,600
No, this was worked out by Mr. Meben, and here I simply have to resign.

2035
02:31:37,600 --> 02:31:44,600
I can't remember a time when anybody who put a formula or an equation on the paper,

2036
02:31:44,600 --> 02:31:49,600
our mind just didn't start knocking together and I went completely blank.

2037
02:31:49,600 --> 02:31:53,600
Particularly a split level thing, you know, and over two.

2038
02:31:53,600 --> 02:31:58,600
E equals MC squared I can just barely face, but everything else don't see.

2039
02:31:58,600 --> 02:32:01,600
I wouldn't even attempt to explain this with the mathematics of this.

2040
02:32:01,600 --> 02:32:03,600
Well, this is not Michelle's at all. This is Mr. Meben's.

2041
02:32:03,600 --> 02:32:13,600
Michelle has a section on the probability, but this section in the appendix or the table, the probability table, is Mr. Meben's work.

2042
02:32:13,600 --> 02:32:19,600
And he is a very lucid explainer, but even he can't make me understand formulas and equations,

2043
02:32:19,600 --> 02:32:24,600
and I'm sorry you'll just have to wait and talk to him because I wouldn't undertake to try and clarify this point.

2044
02:32:24,600 --> 02:32:28,600
But it has quite carefully worked out. I know he's a meticulous worker.

2045
02:32:28,600 --> 02:32:31,600
I wish the terminology was...

2046
02:32:31,600 --> 02:32:35,600
He'll be back at the end of October.

2047
02:32:35,600 --> 02:32:41,600
Maybe he'll explain. Maybe he's meticulous, but I don't think he defined his terms very adequately because I was not able to follow it either.

2048
02:32:41,600 --> 02:32:53,600
Well, the section is so terse and so sort of packed that, I mean, maybe a lot of the explanatory statements were sort of completely condensed.

2049
02:32:53,600 --> 02:32:58,600
I really wish there had been some sort of explanation of the terminology.

2050
02:32:58,600 --> 02:33:00,600
This is typical of Meben.

2051
02:33:00,600 --> 02:33:02,600
Oh, I see. Well, I'm sorry.

2052
02:33:02,600 --> 02:33:04,600
You'll get it as soon as Blake's coming back.

2053
02:33:04,600 --> 02:33:13,600
Yes, I wish you would ask him because I know that it makes sense as he explains it, but he does tend to write very compactly and very succinctly.

2054
02:33:13,600 --> 02:33:21,600
But please don't assume that it is not valid simply because it's written into compactness.

2055
02:33:21,600 --> 02:33:34,600
Does it really have any importance here in as much as he indicated that he did not come out with orthotenic lines as himself, whereas the main body of the book does at least give some examples of them?

2056
02:33:34,600 --> 02:33:41,600
In front of me, his appendix was simply an attempt to use the same methods in America and did not completely succeed on the signing of the ad.

2057
02:33:41,600 --> 02:33:45,600
Yeah, he said you cannot establish either one way or the other whether there are orthotenic lines in the United States.

2058
02:33:45,600 --> 02:33:57,600
In the youth sightings of November 6th, we selected that date because that was the date for which there's the largest number of sightings that could be plotted with considerable accuracy.

2059
02:33:57,600 --> 02:34:06,600
There were other sightings besides the ones listed there, but they were so far west that it would have been only three or four of them, but way out.

2060
02:34:06,600 --> 02:34:15,600
Well, the thing about the orthotenic theory is that tying it up somehow with the idea of little green men are extraterrestrial life.

2061
02:34:15,600 --> 02:34:17,600
Please not green.

2062
02:34:17,600 --> 02:34:21,600
He's gray. Greenish gray. He's not men. He's humanoid.

2063
02:34:21,600 --> 02:34:26,600
These colored little men, various colors, these humanoid.

2064
02:34:26,600 --> 02:34:34,600
The idea is that, say, if a certain kind of plotting on a particular day or sightings, if you plot them out, you get a straight line.

2065
02:34:34,600 --> 02:34:55,600
It would somehow seem to me that this is not indication that this is some sort of life or intelligence guiding these things, because I would imagine that, say, the plotting of various airplane sightings on a particular day would give you all sorts of different kinds of curves and angles and all the rest.

2066
02:34:55,600 --> 02:35:09,600
It would go into the various routes and inclinations of the pilot and all the rest of it, whereas if you find something that more or less travels in a straight line and is sighted along a straight line, it's something quite inanimate that is traveling that way.

2067
02:35:09,600 --> 02:35:11,600
No, it's not. That's the whole point of getting through.

2068
02:35:11,600 --> 02:35:21,600
I'll say two things. The first is that he does not make a connection between the ascertaining lines and the landings and little men reports in France.

2069
02:35:21,600 --> 02:35:28,600
There doesn't seem to be any rule about where those things appear on the straight lines.

2070
02:35:28,600 --> 02:35:47,600
There is something, a phenomenon that he said was observed quite often at the juncture of line. It's what he calls a departure point, and there he sees what he calls the great cloud cigar would be reported there with other smaller objects leaving it or returning to it.

2071
02:35:47,600 --> 02:35:49,600
The so-called mothership.

2072
02:35:49,600 --> 02:36:08,600
We ask, well, let's not use that word either. But it is, in a sense, mothership and baby-ship. But there is no connection that Michelle points out between the little men cases in France and the orthotonic lines.

2073
02:36:08,600 --> 02:36:20,600
Incidentally, it's very interesting that in his first book, he was extremely suspicious of all reports, and he is still very suspicious of the contact reports. He does not accept these at all.

2074
02:36:20,600 --> 02:36:21,600
But he burst out.

2075
02:36:21,600 --> 02:36:23,600
The suspicious is downright rude.

2076
02:36:23,600 --> 02:36:26,600
Oh, I never think of American.

2077
02:36:26,600 --> 02:36:42,600
In the first book, there have been a few reports of little men, even then, and he didn't buy any of those at that time. Now, in this book, he at least reports the Moloid. He was very, very cautious about committing himself on them.

2078
02:36:42,600 --> 02:36:58,600
I think I would like to clarify here, as a moral publicist, anything else. I think practically nobody, if anybody, on this program so far, and many people who read the book don't understand that when Michelle is talking about these orthotonic lines, and we haven't explained what orthotonic means in the first place,

2079
02:36:58,600 --> 02:37:12,600
to leave that out for now. Most people think that if sightings of an object are seen along, say, nine points that make a straight line, that something whizzed overhead, and a first one person saw it, then another person, then another person, another person,

2080
02:37:12,600 --> 02:37:22,600
actually, the thing with traveling a straight line, it's not that at all. These orthotonic lines are lines along which sightings are seen at different times out of order.

2081
02:37:22,600 --> 02:37:30,600
Maybe the third one up the line from the bottom was first, and maybe several hours afterwards the first one, then perhaps the eighth one, then the seventh.

2082
02:37:30,600 --> 02:37:35,600
In other words, these are lines laid out by some form of intelligence.

2083
02:37:35,600 --> 02:37:55,600
I'm going to have to throw a bombshell in here. Isabel, you don't know this, we haven't had time to talk. When I first got deeply interested in ufology, it was about 30 years ago, but when I got after the Arnold thing here, I got greatly interested in it, and being a biologist, I've always been particularly interested in the theory that some ufos, as we call them, could be life forms,

2084
02:37:55,600 --> 02:38:08,600
non-intelligent, i.e. animals or not animals, talk, a life form, another form of life which feeds exclusively on energy, plants feed half on energy and half on matter, and animals feed on matter, which would live either in space or in the upper atmosphere.

2085
02:38:08,600 --> 02:38:15,600
Therefore, I was very interested to see if their behavior fitted in any way with the behavior of animals. I'm an animal behaviorist, that's my job, profession.

2086
02:38:15,600 --> 02:38:30,600
And I started looking into it, and I found something which I showed to certain officials, and I still have it. There's a letter now in the air on the way to M. M. Michel and his own language on this subject. I think I've struck something, which I don't think he has struck yet.

2087
02:38:30,600 --> 02:38:41,600
These orthotenic lines are very peculiar. They are straight lines following the great curvature of the Earth. The coincidence is too great for M. M. Chas.

2088
02:38:41,600 --> 02:39:00,600
Isabelle and Lex, Lex and Isabelle Davis, they took a catnip seed, and kept on throwing it down, and then they saw how many of these seeds they could join up precisely. And they found a certain mathematical formula, a number of which would come up by pure chance.

2089
02:39:00,600 --> 02:39:21,600
Now these things in France are way beyond that shown. When you lay them all out on the map of France, you find they make open, more or less, equilateral triangles, whereas the pseudo orthotenic lines, which Lex worked out for this country in those settings, are very long sort of angular points that stick out like rays of the star.

2090
02:39:21,600 --> 02:39:41,600
Now what, if these, if the particular things that were observed in France, if they were life forms, would have a sort of subintelligence like say a jellyfish. If they were machines developed by intelligent entities somewhere else, they are machines.

2091
02:39:41,600 --> 02:39:51,600
But why would they be following these lines? Are there any lines like this on the Earth already? And nobody seems to have thought of the simple thing, which somebody thought a very long ago.

2092
02:39:51,600 --> 02:39:52,600
Magnetic lines are formed?

2093
02:39:52,600 --> 02:40:09,600
No sir. We have one kind of line, and that is radio beacons for airplane travel. I have imposed a map, an orthotenic map, from sighting underneath an ordinary aerial map for any pilot will use, and you can get almost exact coincidence in some cases.

2094
02:40:09,600 --> 02:40:23,600
Here, whatever they may be that's coming here, even if they're coming from this Earth, they will be using major nodal points where there are the radio beacons pouring out on a beam, which as you know the planes get into and they stick with it.

2095
02:40:23,600 --> 02:40:35,600
And they go absolutely straight from one point to another. Now towns are all laid out in triangles, look at three of them, and they will go up, you have Paris in the middle for instance, and you have one going from Strud,

2096
02:40:35,600 --> 02:40:46,600
Strud will, Strud will, coming in Americanized, straight away down to North Sea or something like that, and you have another one going here from Rance, across here to Barles, something like that.

2097
02:40:46,600 --> 02:41:01,600
And a large number of them will coincide with Paris, they do, there. Then there are other places in his map, there are other places where cross country routes will tend to cross a certain point, on account of the way that the cities are laid out on the map.

2098
02:41:01,600 --> 02:41:15,600
It's all by chance, but there are certain places where you will get cross-overs. Now it looks as if these things, whatever they may be, are using our lines of light energy of a certain kind, certain frequencies you follow me.

2099
02:41:15,600 --> 02:41:16,600
I frequency radio energy.

2100
02:41:16,600 --> 02:41:24,600
Yes, maybe it's a guide, and it is curious business of all changing at midnight. Do you know that they change their radio signals in some cases at midnight?

2101
02:41:24,600 --> 02:41:26,600
Yes, but I'm going to bring it up.

2102
02:41:54,600 --> 02:42:13,600
This is all very interesting, but I don't see that it necessarily adds anything to the intelligence of the creatures.

2103
02:42:13,600 --> 02:42:14,600
No, I'm not saying that.

2104
02:42:14,600 --> 02:42:16,600
There's a very old phenomenon of some kind.

2105
02:42:16,600 --> 02:42:17,600
Surely? Could be.

2106
02:42:17,600 --> 02:42:21,600
What kind of very old phenomena travel along lines of this type?

2107
02:42:21,600 --> 02:42:42,600
Well, if you assume that they are writing beacon lines and so on, then you could say that it is easy to presuppose some kind of electromagnetic force that we don't know about to be non-sentient, as it is for us to presuppose it's used by the saucer people, which has been presupposed.

2108
02:42:42,600 --> 02:42:55,600
I agree with you 100%. I have personally never said that they are intelligent creatures from another planet, or that they are sub-intelligent, i.e. like a jellyfish, which has a degree of intelligence so far that it's organized, or that they are pure physical phenomena.

2109
02:42:55,600 --> 02:43:00,600
That's why I'm constantly inanimate, in other words. I agree with you 100%.

2110
02:43:00,600 --> 02:43:10,600
Whatever they are, whether they didn't have to put up orthotenic grid to start with, is one they're already for them to use.

2111
02:43:10,600 --> 02:43:15,600
Even if they're ball lightning, which nobody can explain, they might follow those lines.

2112
02:43:15,600 --> 02:43:16,600
No, no.

2113
02:43:16,600 --> 02:43:18,600
What about?

2114
02:43:18,600 --> 02:43:20,600
It's conceivable because...

2115
02:43:20,600 --> 02:43:24,600
What's the maximum duration of ball lightning now?

2116
02:43:24,600 --> 02:43:26,600
Nobody knows what ball lightning is.

2117
02:43:26,600 --> 02:43:28,600
No, no, but according to the article...

2118
02:43:28,600 --> 02:43:30,600
I picked a bad one then.

2119
02:43:30,600 --> 02:43:38,600
Alright, but let's take our findings. Our findings on a piece of the old thing, on a piece of glass with your magnet underneath, they follow lines.

2120
02:43:38,600 --> 02:43:39,600
Curve lines.

2121
02:43:39,600 --> 02:43:42,600
Curve lines. Alright, these happen to be straight, that's all.

2122
02:43:42,600 --> 02:43:52,600
As long as we are making somewhat ridiculous suppositions in my book, let us assume one of the things which has been suggested as a ridiculous supposition by Mr. Michele.

2123
02:43:52,600 --> 02:44:04,600
He has said that apparently, you might say that this was a hallucination, but if so, it must necessarily travel in direct lines by telepathy.

2124
02:44:04,600 --> 02:44:18,600
Well, if you're going to assume something like that, then let us assume while we're at it, that the radio beacon electromagnetic frequency waves are inducers or carriers of telepathy.

2125
02:44:18,600 --> 02:44:21,600
You might just as well go that far and get the whole thing.

2126
02:44:21,600 --> 02:44:24,600
Why not? How do you know that it doesn't, sir?

2127
02:44:24,600 --> 02:44:28,600
I'm not saying I do not know that it isn't so. I do not accept it, but I do not know that it isn't so.

2128
02:44:28,600 --> 02:44:37,600
We have got an established phenomenon here. If you're going to simply say that everybody mentioned in this book, it all a lie, as I said at the beginning of the show, you can go ahead and do it.

2129
02:44:37,600 --> 02:44:41,600
But I'm sorry, I just don't dig that stuff. I dig that too many people.

2130
02:44:41,600 --> 02:44:43,600
I am not by any means nor do I understand it.

2131
02:44:43,600 --> 02:44:44,600
That's what you're saying, right?

2132
02:44:44,600 --> 02:44:45,600
No, I am not.

2133
02:44:45,600 --> 02:44:54,600
All right, now we've got something going on here. There's no reason why we shouldn't discuss probabilities or possibilities, however impossible they may sound to us.

2134
02:44:54,600 --> 02:44:56,600
We don't know very much about anything.

2135
02:44:56,600 --> 02:45:02,600
When we have thrown the normal rules of evidence aside, then we might just as well discuss anything with equal significance.

2136
02:45:02,600 --> 02:45:11,600
I totally agree with you. Let's dig up some kind of practical thing that you do feel is nice and safe in orthodox, which you can explain orthotenic lines.

2137
02:45:12,600 --> 02:45:17,600
Such as he has here. Yes, we've made suitable orthotenic lines.

2138
02:45:17,600 --> 02:45:24,600
I think it should be pointed out that he said that they only worked, I think, on two, it might be three occasions when he got them.

2139
02:45:24,600 --> 02:45:26,600
What? Who?

2140
02:45:26,600 --> 02:45:34,600
No, the really significant ones. He laid a key significance to certain ones coming out from a common center, if you'll remember.

2141
02:45:34,600 --> 02:45:35,600
Okay.

2142
02:45:35,600 --> 02:45:39,600
Otherwise, you're going to have a hard time defining just exactly the difference between orthotenic and the other.

2143
02:45:39,600 --> 02:45:41,600
I did read the book.

2144
02:45:41,600 --> 02:45:45,600
Well, I read the book and I have looked at the maps.

2145
02:45:45,600 --> 02:45:52,600
He was not nearly so much interested in the straight lines themselves as he was interested in the way they joined and the nodal point.

2146
02:45:52,600 --> 02:45:53,600
The intersections.

2147
02:45:53,600 --> 02:45:54,600
The intersections.

2148
02:45:54,600 --> 02:46:03,600
In one case, the one of October 7th he gives, there seem to be a great many of the lines converging upon one nodal point.

2149
02:46:03,600 --> 02:46:10,600
In the one for October 2nd, I read the thing in the case I can find it, anyway, that also had the same phenomenon.

2150
02:46:10,600 --> 02:46:14,600
Those are the ones to which he seemed to attach the largest significance. Yes, the October 2nd one.

2151
02:46:14,600 --> 02:46:20,600
And I think he mentioned one other. Somewhere in here, and I cannot find it now because I did not index this as I went along.

2152
02:46:20,600 --> 02:46:28,600
There was a reference to the fact that apparently these truly significant phenomena had only occurred two or three times.

2153
02:46:28,600 --> 02:46:39,600
Oh, excuse me, I beg your pardon, Lefty. He considers the straight lines important whether or not they happen to, on a given day, form a particularly striking pattern.

2154
02:46:39,600 --> 02:46:54,600
Oh, no, you can't say that. He says over and over again that the straight line and not just the spider web pattern on the 2nd or the other one on the star pattern on the 11th, I think, was the 10th.

2155
02:46:54,600 --> 02:46:56,600
Not just those two days.

2156
02:46:56,600 --> 02:47:04,600
You're excited about the book, but I suggest you read it. I think you will find that he gave a major significance to those certain ones where the nodal intersections took place.

2157
02:47:04,600 --> 02:47:14,600
He finds certain phenomena taking place there, but he certainly regards the other straight lines as extremely significant also, now Lefty. Really, he does.

2158
02:47:14,600 --> 02:47:21,600
He regarded that, and in order to make his straight line work, he had to regard all sightings of just about equal significance, if you remember.

2159
02:47:21,600 --> 02:47:34,600
So to him, sightings were good or bad. He said so specifically. He said that at first he was not able to secure a pattern, and then he went back and checked, taking the less satisfactory sightings, and he used those two.

2160
02:47:34,600 --> 02:47:36,600
Well, that makes it even more exceptional.

2161
02:47:36,600 --> 02:47:38,600
It may do so.

2162
02:47:38,600 --> 02:47:46,600
Look, if those sightings which he didn't take at first were more likely to be phonies than the ones that he thought were all right, they should be more scattered and haphazard.

2163
02:47:46,600 --> 02:47:59,600
The amazing thing is that when you put the almost, the ones that people think are definitely phonies, the ones which most people seem to feel actually occurred, put them all together, that's when your orthotonic lines come out.

2164
02:47:59,600 --> 02:48:00,600
That's right.

2165
02:48:00,600 --> 02:48:04,600
It shouldn't work that way. It should work the other way. The phonies would have been scattered all over.

2166
02:48:04,600 --> 02:48:15,600
He has some interesting phenomena provided we can accept his data from which he was working. Now, I do not find any evidence of his attempting to fix the data or anything else.

2167
02:48:15,600 --> 02:48:18,600
I think it was a completely sincere job he did.

2168
02:48:18,600 --> 02:48:30,600
If his data is at all reliable, then he has found evidence of some phenomena of some type. This is not exactly world-shaking, but it's worth looking into.

2169
02:48:30,600 --> 02:48:40,600
As a matter of fact, in your finding the convergence of Beacon lines in the same way, I think that's an interesting aspect too and worth thinking about.

2170
02:48:40,600 --> 02:48:47,600
He doesn't say so either. He doesn't say who's that either.

2171
02:48:47,600 --> 02:49:03,600
Well, if we get our intelligent guidance of machines, it is no more peculiar to assume intelligently directed extraterrestrial machines than it is to assume telepathic hallucinations induced in a straight line.

2172
02:49:03,600 --> 02:49:06,600
Now, who's putting up a ridiculous assumption if you're not?

2173
02:49:06,600 --> 02:49:10,600
I think both are. Oh, incidentally, Mr. Michele mentioned that assumption too. I was quoting from the last question.

2174
02:49:10,600 --> 02:49:12,600
And threw it out with Gale's a lot.

2175
02:49:12,600 --> 02:49:13,600
I know he did, but...

2176
02:49:13,600 --> 02:49:18,600
As an example of a legit scientific thinking of orthodoxy, that's the best they can think up.

2177
02:49:18,600 --> 02:49:20,600
Oh, no, no, no, no.

2178
02:49:20,600 --> 02:49:24,600
He said he threw it out. He threw it out with Gale's a lot. He did not say it was an example of orthodoxy.

2179
02:49:24,600 --> 02:49:25,600
Yes, he did.

2180
02:49:25,600 --> 02:49:26,600
Gale, I'll put it down.

2181
02:49:26,600 --> 02:49:28,600
I'll find you the actual place in here.

2182
02:49:28,600 --> 02:49:33,600
He said that's the kind of thinking that these kind of professional skeptics go in for. They get something they don't understand.

2183
02:49:33,600 --> 02:49:39,600
They don't understand how to explain it. And then they think up the most unoutable rubbish they can, which is even more rubbish than this thing.

2184
02:49:39,600 --> 02:49:44,600
Have you met any orthodox scientists who propose telepathy as a solution seriously?

2185
02:49:44,600 --> 02:49:47,600
On this particular score, no. I wouldn't talk about it with a person.

2186
02:49:47,600 --> 02:49:55,600
So, let us at least retain a certain amount of respect for the scientists who have not proposed these wild blue yonder schemes.

2187
02:49:55,600 --> 02:49:59,600
I am saying that all these things are equally wild blue yonder.

2188
02:49:59,600 --> 02:50:09,600
The idea of people coming across all the countless far-sexes faced in the quantity necessary to make these things work is just as ridiculous as telepathy and there is less evidence for it.

2189
02:50:09,600 --> 02:50:11,600
I don't think so. I think it's a great deal of evidence.

2190
02:50:11,600 --> 02:50:17,600
You would like to go back to the source for a second on page 215 of the book.

2191
02:50:17,600 --> 02:50:19,600
We're talking about the orthotonic line.

2192
02:50:19,600 --> 02:50:40,600
This is when they are plotted on an appropriate map of Europe, the daily observations reported by the press from the beginning to about the 10th of October are found to be arranged first on one, then on two, then on an ever-increasing number of straight lines or great circles, until during the maximum veritable networks are formed by each day's observations.

2193
02:50:40,600 --> 02:50:50,600
When all the observations up to October 20th are plotted in this way, it is found that A, until October 10th, almost all the observations fall on straight lines.

2194
02:50:50,600 --> 02:50:57,600
B, after that date, approximately the number of cases which fail to fit on a line increases every day.

2195
02:50:57,600 --> 02:51:08,600
C, the descriptions of the objects seen in these nonconforming cases recognizably refer to known objects, airplanes, cosmic ray and other balloons, meters and so forth.

2196
02:51:08,600 --> 02:51:12,600
Although they are uniformly called quote flying sources and quotes.

2197
02:51:12,600 --> 02:51:17,600
D, in each network there is a principal nexus point where many lines cross.

2198
02:51:17,600 --> 02:51:26,600
E, the phenomenon reported at these principal nexus points is uniformly the big cloud cigar or a so-called mothership.

2199
02:51:26,600 --> 02:51:39,600
And conversely, wherever the big cigar is observed standing still in a vertical position, that point will invariably prove to be the principal nexus of the day's network.

2200
02:51:39,600 --> 02:51:49,600
F, the falling leaf maneuver with change of direction is always reported from an intersection point of two lines, but the converse is not invariably true,

2201
02:51:49,600 --> 02:51:56,600
so there are intersection points where no change of direction is reported. That means a great many more sightings than four.

2202
02:51:56,600 --> 02:52:01,600
A great many more sightings than four. I don't think anybody suggests there were only four sightings.

2203
02:52:01,600 --> 02:52:05,600
A great many more cases than just using two means of observation.

2204
02:52:05,600 --> 02:52:08,600
Days of observations and observations.

2205
02:52:08,600 --> 02:52:15,600
When it was trying to make the point that he thought that Michel's whole theory was founded on these nexus points.

2206
02:52:15,600 --> 02:52:20,600
No, I said that was the greatest significance to his findings. Not the whole thing.

2207
02:52:20,600 --> 02:52:31,600
I thought it was one of four. One was that they do form straight lines in a very short space of time, in a greater number of cases than ordinary mathematical probability.

2208
02:52:31,600 --> 02:52:33,600
That's debatable.

2209
02:52:33,600 --> 02:52:38,600
Two, that you have these nexus points, and three, that you have these parallelograms.

2210
02:52:38,600 --> 02:52:49,600
These parallel lines. It's very funny that some of the lines in these maps, in quite a number of cases, come out parallel in addition to being part of a nexus and orthotenic lines,

2211
02:52:49,600 --> 02:52:55,600
that they're exactly parallel. Now, there's one other thing we've all overlooked here, which I find profoundly interesting, and that is that they are orthotenic lines.

2212
02:52:55,600 --> 02:53:01,600
They are not straight lines on a Makato projection. They are a straight line on the great circle.

2213
02:53:01,600 --> 02:53:04,600
He is a straight line on the circle of the globe.

2214
02:53:04,600 --> 02:53:08,600
Yes, a circle of the globe, which is enormously precise for a large number of people.

2215
02:53:08,600 --> 02:53:15,600
I counted them up. He's got 127 dots on one of those maps there, and they were all within a total issue.

2216
02:53:15,600 --> 02:53:25,600
You know, all told, he reports something like 350 cases, at least, that are in this book I haven't really ever counted.

2217
02:53:25,600 --> 02:53:30,600
Yes, 50 cases, because some of his maps involve 20, 30, or 50 sightings in one day.

2218
02:53:30,600 --> 02:53:32,600
But there's one group of those.

2219
02:53:32,600 --> 02:53:41,600
There are two of them. Well, there's one map there that covers several days, because it's the northern, three northern departments of France, to which he refers in several different places.

2220
02:53:41,600 --> 02:53:47,600
It's still interesting. It's still interesting. Even if it covers three days, instead of just one, it's peculiar that they should follow something.

2221
02:53:47,600 --> 02:53:56,600
People say that something happened, and where they say it happened, it's surprisingly almost to the field.

2222
02:53:56,600 --> 02:54:03,600
Well, you have suggested something, as a matter of fact, in your statement that they are radio beacon lines.

2223
02:54:03,600 --> 02:54:10,600
Radio beacons are usually set up at certain points along travel airlines, or things of that nature.

2224
02:54:10,600 --> 02:54:25,600
They're set up at, you might say, communication centers, where in the name of the Lord, will you expect reports of sightings to be among people who have not yet caught up with the science fiction gobbledygook that seems to influence the little green men so heavily,

2225
02:54:25,600 --> 02:54:31,600
more than at connection points. That's exactly where you would expect to find your sightings.

2226
02:54:31,600 --> 02:54:39,600
Unless you get sightings to sightings at the connection points, the little green men don't enter into the heat alive.

2227
02:54:39,600 --> 02:54:41,600
He does report them at other places.

2228
02:54:41,600 --> 02:54:42,600
Oh, yes.

2229
02:54:42,600 --> 02:54:53,600
Wait a second. Hold the phone. Connection points for communication is what I am talking about. Along those lines, those would be the main connections between centers of communication.

2230
02:54:53,600 --> 02:54:55,600
Why?

2231
02:54:55,600 --> 02:55:04,600
You do not, in other words, set up a radio beacon in the middle of France in the least forward part of France. You set it up from city to city, don't you?

2232
02:55:04,600 --> 02:55:12,600
Yes, but there are relay stations, and don't forget that those beams are set up and they're shot out at one end and received at another end, we'll say.

2233
02:55:12,600 --> 02:55:21,600
But those beams will cross each other in many cases, whether it isn't any nodal point. The node is merely in the beams crossing, there is no dispersal center at that point.

2234
02:55:21,600 --> 02:55:22,600
That's the funny thing about it.

2235
02:55:22,600 --> 02:55:25,600
Can you check that against your theory?

2236
02:55:25,600 --> 02:55:33,600
I tell you, the letter is still in the air. It's a suggestion. We tried it with a whole bunch of sightings without any kind of evaluation of the sightings.

2237
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:37,600
In the very early days, I'm going back now to 1948. Let me finish.

2238
02:55:37,600 --> 02:55:51,600
I showed it to an airline pilot who had lost his job over the instance. He took certain evasive action and he was told, if you're going to believe in flying saucers, you must drink in the air or something.

2239
02:55:51,600 --> 02:55:57,600
He was furious and he did lose his job. He was a pretty good man and a very good flyer.

2240
02:55:57,600 --> 02:56:05,600
I was kind of upset that this was long before Kenneth Allen. It must have been 1945. In those days in America, this had never been heard of.

2241
02:56:05,600 --> 02:56:07,600
But in other countries, I can assure you that it had.

2242
02:56:07,600 --> 02:56:08,600
Oh, it had been heard of here?

2243
02:56:08,600 --> 02:56:10,600
Yes, Charles Ford and so on.

2244
02:56:10,600 --> 02:56:11,600
Yes, of course.

2245
02:56:11,600 --> 02:56:18,600
We sat down and I said, look, here's a strange patent here. It doesn't seem to make any kind of sense except that a lot of them, of the reports, mind you,

2246
02:56:18,600 --> 02:56:23,600
and I was working as a reporter at the time. I clustered around certain points. What are they?

2247
02:56:23,600 --> 02:56:30,600
And he said, well, funnily enough, all those points are, of course, where we are putting out a great deal of electrical energy, power plants and so on.

2248
02:56:30,600 --> 02:56:31,600
And he said, well, what's this one?

2249
02:56:31,600 --> 02:56:41,600
Well, I subsequently found that that isolated one happened to be an entirely unknown and completely secret atomic energy plant, which got me in a certain amount of trouble.

2250
02:56:41,600 --> 02:56:46,600
He wanted to know how the dickings I knew. Well, I didn't know. I never even been in that particular state.

2251
02:56:46,600 --> 02:56:53,600
But it was odd that the reports came, because then our thinking was, well, in a place like that, whether it is great sensitivity,

2252
02:56:53,600 --> 02:57:02,600
from the point of view of speaking security-wise, that people would be more likely to be looking at the sky and interpret any funny thing as they saw a star-fricling or something.

2253
02:57:02,600 --> 02:57:07,600
We went into that and then he suddenly said, but wait a minute, he said, some of these things make straight lines.

2254
02:57:08,600 --> 02:57:15,600
And I said, well, they tend to go along a line. And he said, I haven't been flying all over the United States all these years without knowing what those are.

2255
02:57:15,600 --> 02:57:21,600
I said, if I want to get from Memphis to New York, he said, that's the line I would take.

2256
02:57:21,600 --> 02:57:29,600
It was a darn funny thing that you got. Here we had, I think you saw the map in Jerusalem many years ago when we first met.

2257
02:57:29,600 --> 02:57:37,600
It was very crude and we didn't have enough, but we had over 200 alleged sightings, newspaper clippings.

2258
02:57:37,600 --> 02:57:43,600
And there were great blank areas in the United States, and then there were these sort of channels where they lay in these clusters.

2259
02:57:43,600 --> 02:57:51,600
And there was a double cluster where the channels crossed. But there were other clusters where they really were clustered,

2260
02:57:51,600 --> 02:57:58,600
and those were places where they sent out these radio-beefens. But it was not by no means precise.

2261
02:57:58,600 --> 02:58:07,600
It wasn't absolute, you know. And I have, as I say, I've simply written a letter and I've suggested to Mr. Michel that he might like to consider this thing

2262
02:58:07,600 --> 02:58:11,600
and see if he can get any of these maps and twiddle them around and see if there's any way.

2263
02:58:11,600 --> 02:58:14,600
Well, he would have maps of the radio-beacon's entrance, wouldn't he?

2264
02:58:14,600 --> 02:58:20,600
Oh, sure. You wouldn't go out and buy them anywhere. I mean, if you wanted to come buy a pipe at the United States.

2265
02:58:20,600 --> 02:58:25,600
There's one thing that that question then raised that although I don't like to get away from a little man and I,

2266
02:58:25,600 --> 02:58:35,600
I suppose you're familiar with the W. Allen Webb's analysis of the Martian Canal system in comparing it with the Crack system.

2267
02:58:35,600 --> 02:58:48,600
I think that's very interesting that the canals show the same percentage of junctures, what he calls junctures, as the railroad and airplane systems.

2268
02:58:48,600 --> 02:58:57,600
Yeah, the any, any, any, any, any sort of, if some canals exist and if what certain astronomers claim to have seen are true,

2269
02:58:57,600 --> 02:59:06,600
I mean, there's been a great deal of fights about that. But any sort of analysis of the Martian Canal system cannot lead any sort of natural phenomenon explanation.

2270
02:59:06,600 --> 02:59:07,600
They have to be real.

2271
02:59:07,600 --> 02:59:09,600
Oh, wait, excuse me. Wait a minute.

2272
02:59:09,600 --> 02:59:14,600
There is a publication just come out in, well, it was reviewed in the Royal Geographical Society's journal.

2273
02:59:14,600 --> 02:59:20,600
It originally came out in GeoTimes, I think. It's not the publication of the Geophysical Union of the United States.

2274
02:59:20,600 --> 02:59:21,600
GeoTimes?

2275
02:59:21,600 --> 02:59:24,600
GeoTimes, I think it's called. It's a fairly small publication.

2276
02:59:24,600 --> 02:59:37,600
Beautiful piece of work. Aerial surveys of a southern Sahara on the Nigerian side, they have got fault structure, which is absolutely identical to the Martian Canal system.

2277
02:59:37,600 --> 02:59:44,600
The Martian Canal is supposed to be, is supposed to have been seen on the canals and its geologists, who are the working geologists.

2278
02:59:44,600 --> 02:59:49,600
Volcanicity at any time. Volcanicity is probably being caused entirely by Earth shift.

2279
02:59:49,600 --> 02:59:55,600
And if you don't have ice, you can't have imbalance. So that's a long thing you and I have to go into sometime.

2280
02:59:55,600 --> 02:59:58,600
He said there probably has never been any geological activity on Mars.

2281
02:59:58,600 --> 03:00:05,600
But if there had been in the past, that cracks would have developed much the same as the Rift Valley, which as you know, runs right around the Earth.

2282
03:00:05,600 --> 03:00:09,600
Because then it plunges down, it goes all the way up to Palestine, and it goes down again.

2283
03:00:09,600 --> 03:00:21,600
But he did bring out very clearly that there is a perfectly natural crack structure to be found on the surface of this Earth, which reproduces pretty closely what he said, the cannoli.

2284
03:00:21,600 --> 03:00:26,600
In other words, the Martian looking at Earth, the mythical Martian looking at Earth, would say, I wonder what all those canals are.

2285
03:00:26,600 --> 03:00:33,600
Well, no, because don't forget we've got land on order, and you're going to get different rays of light that are going to be absorbed.

2286
03:00:33,600 --> 03:00:39,600
They may not even know what a sea is, but you will not get the effects from under the sea.

2287
03:00:39,600 --> 03:00:44,600
You have planes, flat planes to the Martian, but on the land areas would you have canals?

2288
03:00:44,600 --> 03:00:48,600
You would probably see cannoli, isn't it?

2289
03:00:48,600 --> 03:00:49,600
I mean, I can see cannoli.

2290
03:00:49,600 --> 03:01:02,600
But along these false structures, I mean, according to some of the observations of the canal, is that there are noticed by the people, I can repeat, there are noticed by the people who claim to see the canals.

2291
03:01:02,600 --> 03:01:10,600
So it's seasonal variations in the color along the edge of the canals, from blue to green, and then finally to a disappearance of the color.

2292
03:01:10,600 --> 03:01:11,600
There is no question of that.

2293
03:01:11,600 --> 03:01:14,600
Now, the very same things can be observed on this Earth.

2294
03:01:14,600 --> 03:01:22,600
Now that we have planes that fly high enough, and some of the photographs taken of northern Palaan, or show exactly the same structure, northern Palaan is rather a dry area.

2295
03:01:22,600 --> 03:01:25,600
It's very peculiar that it is rather like the temperate zone.

2296
03:01:25,600 --> 03:01:30,600
It has a season, a monsoon season, and the vegetation grows at certain times.

2297
03:01:30,600 --> 03:01:35,600
Now, it flowers at certain times, it proliferates, and then it dries away.

2298
03:01:35,600 --> 03:01:42,600
There is a definite difference in color between the different, northern of the soil, to the different basic rocks.

2299
03:01:42,600 --> 03:01:51,600
And where you get a basaltic fault, that is, the basalt pushed up from underneath in the form of a dike, it'll run on a meandering course for the sedatives of the Earth.

2300
03:01:51,600 --> 03:01:59,600
And the current type of vegetation that grows on the basalt is quite different to the sedimentary rocks on either side, which have been pushed apart, caught by the dike.

2301
03:01:59,600 --> 03:02:08,600
Therefore, when you come to the season and you get a proliferation of greenery, the outside of the dike will get greenish first.

2302
03:02:08,600 --> 03:02:20,600
And then, where you've had metamorphosis of the rock, you know, the rock has been changed in structure, the country rock, by the intrusion of this magma from underneath, you get a different mineral content as you go out.

2303
03:02:20,600 --> 03:02:33,600
Therefore, this flowering starts from the edge of the dike and spreads outwards, and you get an actual pattern from the air, if you're high enough up, a dark green merging to no green at all, and the dike remaining absolutely brown for perhaps another month.

2304
03:02:33,600 --> 03:02:39,600
Very much the same natural structure on this Earth, which could be seen in the cannily in Mars.

2305
03:02:39,600 --> 03:02:51,600
Let me just refer to the moment to bring a message from those scholars who are running around with bare feet someplace out in California, crushing a couple of grapes for Petri wine.

2306
03:02:51,600 --> 03:03:06,600
This one is from White Plains, New York. Long John. Dear Long John and panel, the truth will shock you. There will be visions and signs in the heavens. This is the second coming of Christ. God made only one universe.

2307
03:03:06,600 --> 03:03:19,600
Twenty hours a day for 21 months I have observed. There are no green men. Moon was face crafted. Hunter saw, sincerely, Hildegard Horton.

2308
03:03:19,600 --> 03:03:40,600
Here's another telegram from Valley Stream, New York. I'm tired of your panel discounting UFOs. I have seen flying saucers and willing to be interrogated or would appreciate being on your panel. Bill Farrell, Locust 10497, Valley Stream, New York. Locust 10497.

2309
03:03:41,600 --> 03:04:01,600
I can only say this to Mr. Farrell in commenting on his telegram. We certainly appreciate his generous offer, but we have never made it a policy of interviewing people who have seen flying saucers.

2310
03:04:01,600 --> 03:04:13,600
We are primarily interested in people who have been in flying saucers or who have at least had contact with Venusians or Martians.

2311
03:04:14,600 --> 03:04:18,600
Do you want to read this one, please?

2312
03:04:18,600 --> 03:04:32,600
Well, from New York City, Long John. If Isabella knows whether the little green men wore green jackets and red caps, then I have got the answer. They are the theories of William Allingham.

2313
03:04:33,600 --> 03:04:58,600
Here's one from Garrison, New York. Western Union operator still on the job, cooperating long distance with my thanks. Is any element equal to any other? Please answer. Even if you forget Charles Ford, I wish an answer. Ambelcher, don't make me wait all night. I'm paying for it.

2314
03:04:58,600 --> 03:05:01,600
May I answer that, John?

2315
03:05:01,600 --> 03:05:04,600
All elements are disenchanted.

2316
03:05:04,600 --> 03:05:07,600
Is that on a fourth or a seventh dimension?

2317
03:05:07,600 --> 03:05:11,600
It depends on whether the plane is perpendicular to the high part.

2318
03:05:11,600 --> 03:05:19,600
I think Mr. Ben Bebelcher will appreciate that bit of information. Do you care to read another telegram please?

2319
03:05:19,600 --> 03:05:22,600
Wait a minute. I disagree with you.

2320
03:05:22,600 --> 03:05:37,600
I know this theory that it's 175 degrees instead of 180 degrees in the first minute in a manner, but I don't completely buy that, since I think if you write 185 and 170 slides and divide by two, the division is untenable. You cannot get away with it.

2321
03:05:37,600 --> 03:05:39,600
Oh, but you have to quality.

2322
03:05:39,600 --> 03:05:41,600
No, I see that quality.

2323
03:05:41,600 --> 03:05:43,600
We certainly disagree with you.

2324
03:05:43,600 --> 03:05:47,600
Well, you haven't considered the double spying to luck. At the end of the open-dictator eye-partner.

2325
03:05:47,600 --> 03:05:55,600
I think we're spending too much time on this. I think we should do an entire show on Mr. Bebelcher's question. Let's read another telegram.

2326
03:05:55,600 --> 03:06:04,600
From New York City, Long John, new Pond's statement, Sunday Times, page 18. Wow. Please have panel discussed. No name, please.

2327
03:06:04,600 --> 03:06:06,600
What?

2328
03:06:07,600 --> 03:06:24,600
This is from Brunswick, New Jersey. Any known cases of dogs attacking these people, such as evidence of blood or torn clothing, enjoying your program, very much sincerely John Ayers? Is there any report of that?

2329
03:06:24,600 --> 03:06:34,600
No, no, no cases. I think he's one of the ones that paid in case for the dog tried to bite the oxygen of a saucer, but without going any blood.

2330
03:06:34,600 --> 03:06:43,600
And I know of no case where there's any evidence of a wound to these space men or the occupant of the saucer, I will say.

2331
03:06:43,600 --> 03:06:45,600
Are we useful?

2332
03:06:45,600 --> 03:06:55,600
I wonder if Mr. Bebelcher would just add there, when in the Hopkinsville case they fired point blanks the Marine with a shotgun at a small, one of these small human eyes.

2333
03:06:55,600 --> 03:07:09,600
Oh yes. They didn't even perforate the whatever it was, the skin or the armor, whatever. They simply sounded as if they had hit a galvanized bucket.

2334
03:07:09,600 --> 03:07:11,600
Right. Like mine.

2335
03:07:11,600 --> 03:07:22,600
Yeah. And the creatures just get knocked, healed their head and run off in the bushes and then come back. They couldn't, Danny, can even at point blank range.

2336
03:07:23,600 --> 03:07:28,600
Whatever they did to this, they got about a marine being involved.

2337
03:07:28,600 --> 03:07:31,600
I don't think it was a marine. He's been in the Army.

2338
03:07:31,600 --> 03:07:34,600
Oh, well, I know you've been a service man. Ex-service man.

2339
03:07:34,600 --> 03:07:35,600
Yes, ex-service man.

2340
03:07:35,600 --> 03:07:37,600
How many people do they have there? Eight?

2341
03:07:37,600 --> 03:07:41,600
Well, eight adults and three children in the house that night.

2342
03:07:41,600 --> 03:07:43,600
You want to read that, tell me the answer?

2343
03:07:43,600 --> 03:07:46,600
Yeah. This is from Professor Woodard.

2344
03:07:46,600 --> 03:07:47,600
You'd rather have sent me up to him?

2345
03:07:47,600 --> 03:07:49,600
No, I'll read it because I don't want to answer it anyway.

2346
03:07:49,600 --> 03:07:50,600
I'll let you.

2347
03:07:50,600 --> 03:07:51,600
I'll answer the man's name.

2348
03:07:51,600 --> 03:07:52,600
No, I won't.

2349
03:07:52,600 --> 03:07:55,600
From Clinton, New Jersey, Long John.

2350
03:07:55,600 --> 03:08:00,600
So thickening W-O-R subsidizes so much bunk as tonight's program.

2351
03:08:00,600 --> 03:08:11,600
Integration, red china and three out of five American married women working for their daily bread and families is of so much more importance than this trash.

2352
03:08:11,600 --> 03:08:17,600
Can I understand how Del Ray can be suffered into and dignify these ridiculous subjects and personalities?

2353
03:08:17,600 --> 03:08:20,600
Question mark. No name please.

2354
03:08:20,600 --> 03:08:26,600
Actually, I do not consider myself being suffered into the subject and I certainly do not wish to dignify it.

2355
03:08:26,600 --> 03:08:33,600
And by and large, I must say that I consider it just as ridiculous as the slender of that.

2356
03:08:33,600 --> 03:08:49,600
On the other hand, if a person who has no use for the little men's theory is unwilling to discuss it at all, then the error is left free in my opinion for people who will go on in a straight-believing ramp and we get far more propaganda and more people can be suffered in.

2357
03:08:49,600 --> 03:08:58,600
I am here only in the attempt to apply a modicum of sanity to an insane subject and I am afraid that the internet is impossible.

2358
03:08:58,600 --> 03:09:06,600
I would like to say also that I am a working woman myself for what that is worth. I do not see what the working woman has got to do with it.

2359
03:09:06,600 --> 03:09:10,600
This gentleman has been working for a long time and he certainly is entitled to it.

2360
03:09:10,600 --> 03:09:11,600
He is entitled to telegraph.

2361
03:09:11,600 --> 03:09:12,600
Yes, he has, yes.

2362
03:09:12,600 --> 03:09:25,600
He listens all the time and as far as dignifying these ridiculous subjects and personalities, I would just like to say this to the gentleman.

2363
03:09:25,600 --> 03:09:28,600
He has asked me not to use his name and I certainly have not.

2364
03:09:28,600 --> 03:09:32,600
The gentleman who put left over commanding talent.

2365
03:09:32,600 --> 03:09:39,600
I am sorry, that does not mix this up now because we do not want to identify the man.

2366
03:09:39,600 --> 03:09:53,600
I would just like to say this, that I do not think that the personalities that we are very fortunate to be able to talk to this morning require any dignification if there is such a word.

2367
03:09:53,600 --> 03:09:57,600
Is that on the part of anybody sitting around the table here?

2368
03:09:57,600 --> 03:10:17,600
I might say that I am extremely proud as the moderator of the party line and I can assure you that the management of WOR certainly must share my enthusiasm to be able to have Lester Del Ray, Ivan Sanderson, Isabel Davis and Hans Devin Sanderson around these microphones.

2369
03:10:17,600 --> 03:10:22,600
It certainly must be obvious to our listeners that I have deleted the name of one of our guests.

2370
03:10:22,600 --> 03:10:29,600
I am sorry.

2371
03:10:29,600 --> 03:10:30,600
I will let you comment.

2372
03:10:30,600 --> 03:10:31,600
If you want.

2373
03:10:31,600 --> 03:10:32,600
I have no comment.

2374
03:10:32,600 --> 03:10:33,600
Thank you, Director.

2375
03:10:33,600 --> 03:10:37,600
I am not saying anything until there is a flooded telegram saying what happened to them.

2376
03:10:37,600 --> 03:10:42,600
I would like to add this one thing, John.

2377
03:10:42,600 --> 03:10:49,600
I do not disagree with the gentleman that he said that he mentioned are of importance.

2378
03:10:49,600 --> 03:11:09,600
They are tragically important in these things, but I think I would like to suggest to him that it is equally important that we explore issues such as these, questions such as these, which may very conceivably, even if they do sound a little mad, affect our children.

2379
03:11:09,600 --> 03:11:33,600
We have no right in these days to arbitrarily dismiss any one subject as unimportant or insane because I think and I am sure even Lester will agree with me on this score that history has proven that the subjects that were dismissed as unimportant and fabulous and ridiculous and insane yesterday have been the proven facts today.

2380
03:11:33,600 --> 03:11:35,600
John, may I speak on that?

2381
03:11:35,600 --> 03:11:40,600
I think that history has so proved it at least one percent of the time.

2382
03:11:40,600 --> 03:11:50,600
I also think that, as a matter of fact, I am very happy that she brought this up, because I have long wanted to discuss the serious aspects of witchcraft in the modern age review.

2383
03:11:50,600 --> 03:11:52,600
I would like to talk about it.

2384
03:11:52,600 --> 03:11:59,600
Ivan and I were talking about witchcraft. Ivan and I were present at a dance.

2385
03:11:59,600 --> 03:12:07,600
There are moments when we do get together and discuss other things than ufology.

2386
03:12:07,600 --> 03:12:25,600
And at one point in the evening, and maybe it was about this time, as a matter of fact, a man pointed out to me in Ivan's presence and said, here is one of the greatest so-and-so's in this area.

2387
03:12:25,600 --> 03:12:31,600
I would say that such a discussion could be extremely interesting.

2388
03:12:31,600 --> 03:12:40,600
I would like to also say to this gentleman who is kind enough to send the telegram that there are many programs on radio.

2389
03:12:40,600 --> 03:12:52,600
I sincerely hope that this man continues to listen to the party line, but there are many programs on radio that deal with some of the subjects that this gentleman has suggested.

2390
03:12:52,600 --> 03:13:03,600
I talked about some of the things, but also Barry Gray on WMCA has had some excellent discussions on integration.

2391
03:13:03,600 --> 03:13:18,600
Tex McCrary has discussed all of the subjects that this gentleman has mentioned, with the exception of possibly three out of five women that have to make their daily bread, which I don't think is a tragic thing.

2392
03:13:18,600 --> 03:13:29,600
I think most women are happy that they're able to enter into the business world, but there are many programs that deal with those subjects.

2393
03:13:29,600 --> 03:13:45,600
I think that the gentleman that sent this telegram, I think that I don't imagine that he would send the telegram to some disc jockey who's playing some music at night and say, why don't you instead of playing rock and roll, why don't you play classical music?

2394
03:13:45,600 --> 03:13:56,600
I think each one of the programs have a formula, a rather a format that they think is best for the listeners that they have.

2395
03:13:56,600 --> 03:14:21,600
And I think it may be interesting to note that the management of WOR saw fit to announce the discussion that we are having at the present time 25 times on Friday with 20 seconds spots and one minute spots.

2396
03:14:21,600 --> 03:14:33,600
And again, 20 times on Saturday to alert people to the discussion that we are having at the present time.

2397
03:14:33,600 --> 03:14:55,600
Now this does not necessarily mean that the management of WOR agreeing with Isabel Davis or with Ivan Sanderson, but the management of WOR, to my knowledge, have always had a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for Ivan Sanderson.

2398
03:14:56,600 --> 03:15:21,600
Yes, I just want to say one more word and this is, I think it's unfair to allow this moment to pass without reference to the many programs and discussions that you have had on the party line, touching on issues of certainly of considerable, significant, social significant use here.

2399
03:15:21,600 --> 03:15:35,600
I think I have heard so many of these programs and I have been extremely impressed by their value and by their importance. I think they have got the most.

2400
03:15:35,600 --> 03:15:37,600
Yes, absolutely. I think it's very unfair.

2401
03:15:37,600 --> 03:15:43,600
It's very unfair on the view that you have got to talk about and have a lot of people talk about which we don't hear on that.

2402
03:15:43,600 --> 03:15:59,600
I think it's very unfair to ignore the fact that you have on many occasions had as frank and as courageous and as outspoken and as detailed discussions on the subject as any of the other people you mentioned.

2403
03:15:59,600 --> 03:16:07,600
Oh and the other thing is that it's the only program where these subjects have an opportunity to get a really start.

2404
03:16:07,600 --> 03:16:18,600
Because during the daytime hours they're chopped up but can you see the subject is covered, I quote. Here it can really be explored.

2405
03:16:18,600 --> 03:16:30,600
I can remember exploring one of the other, I said it's in between a receipt for big teams and what an ambassador's wife had been wearing on a program once.

2406
03:16:30,600 --> 03:16:37,600
I was once asked to give the geomorphological history of the earth on television with demonstrations. I said, how long have I got?

2407
03:16:37,600 --> 03:16:40,600
They said seven and a half minutes. That's actually true.

2408
03:16:40,600 --> 03:16:50,600
Well, if they can condense the Dostoevsky crime and punishment in half an hour, why are they using the geological time scale in seven minutes?

2409
03:16:50,600 --> 03:16:56,600
One of the big troubles with our culture I'm saying today is that there's too many technicians around and not enough thinkers.

2410
03:16:56,600 --> 03:17:01,600
Nobody can think anymore. They can only have one subject and it's right or wrong. That's as far as the little mindful delts.

2411
03:17:01,600 --> 03:17:10,600
All re-digestism. We're chopped down. Everything has got to be digested, re-digested, re-digested, digested again. You end up with the wrong answer. That's all.

2412
03:17:10,600 --> 03:17:13,600
You've forgotten how to think.

2413
03:17:13,600 --> 03:17:14,600
Thanks.

2414
03:17:14,600 --> 03:17:23,600
Well, as far as the discussion as to what is the proper subject to talk about and what's more important to talk about and all the rest of it,

2415
03:17:23,600 --> 03:17:37,600
there's a classical little story about after the subway in Moscow had been built and the Russians were very proud of this beautiful subway with Greek columns and the subway station and paintings and the halls and all the rest of it.

2416
03:17:37,600 --> 03:17:42,600
They were showing it to a bunch of American tourists. The Russian guide was very proud of this subway.

2417
03:17:42,600 --> 03:17:58,600
So, you know, talking about, notice the beautiful artwork and the paintings and notice the architectures and the floors are solid marble and the halls are vast and the tremendous room on the stations and there's all kinds of luxuries and lounges all throughout the station.

2418
03:17:58,600 --> 03:18:07,600
And we're going through the subway for about a half an hour and then finally one of the American tourists turned around and said, you know, we've been here for a half an hour and I haven't seen any trains.

2419
03:18:07,600 --> 03:18:14,600
And, and quick as a snap, the guy came around and said, what about the lynching down south?

2420
03:18:14,600 --> 03:18:16,600
Very true. Very true.

2421
03:18:16,600 --> 03:18:28,600
Well, actually, whenever I read an encyclopedia, I'm amazed to find that this book, which is designed to inform people and to serve as a focal point of all knowledge, has many things in it which I do not find interesting at all.

2422
03:18:28,600 --> 03:18:34,600
And yet I part one. Maybe I should send my encyclopedia back and get another one that has only things in which I am now interested.

2423
03:18:34,600 --> 03:18:36,600
I think you should.

2424
03:18:36,600 --> 03:18:47,600
We have a couple of telegrams, but just one point that I have a telegram here from Catherine Georgia Hulls.

2425
03:18:47,600 --> 03:18:55,600
And in her telegram, she's, please stop arguments online and continue the question to Isabel about Golden Man.

2426
03:18:55,600 --> 03:19:05,600
Unfortunately, during the coffee break, Isabel told me that she was not acquainted with that particular story.

2427
03:19:05,600 --> 03:19:14,600
So to repeat the question and to have Isabel say that she's not familiar with the story, I think would be rather dull radio.

2428
03:19:14,600 --> 03:19:20,600
So we'll continue on with some of the telegrams and then we want to get back to our discussion in the morning.

2429
03:19:20,600 --> 03:19:22,600
This is WOR Radio.

2430
03:19:22,600 --> 03:19:25,600
This is the home belt here of Garrison, New York.

2431
03:19:25,600 --> 03:19:28,600
Garrison, is that where there's the four-parts at least?

2432
03:19:28,600 --> 03:19:31,600
Long John. This is my fifth telegram.

2433
03:19:31,600 --> 03:19:34,600
My Western Union operators are still on the job.

2434
03:19:34,600 --> 03:19:37,600
Is there any element that is equal to another element, Long John?

2435
03:19:37,600 --> 03:19:42,600
Will you answer my question, please? You ask for questions. Now give me an answer.

2436
03:19:42,600 --> 03:19:49,600
I would like to answer this one seriously, finally, since it has reached the point where it is obvious that the sender of this is very perturbed about the situation.

2437
03:19:49,600 --> 03:19:53,600
No, unfortunately, one element is not equal to another element.

2438
03:19:53,600 --> 03:20:02,600
They are organizing labor unions there at the present time and they also have certain women's groups who are trying to work for equal rights.

2439
03:20:02,600 --> 03:20:06,600
So far, however, the elements have proved to be very aggressive.

2440
03:20:06,600 --> 03:20:09,600
They have shown no signs of progress whatsoever.

2441
03:20:09,600 --> 03:20:18,600
As soon as I am able to get my union card in the elements union and to get my fight card to go out on strike for equal rights, I intend to do so.

2442
03:20:18,600 --> 03:20:22,600
So at the present time, I must say on a microcosmic scale, thank you.

2443
03:20:22,600 --> 03:20:34,600
Back with our guest of the morning, Isabella Bevis, Ivan Sanderson, Ben Iskulis, Hans Steffen Sanfison, and Lester Delray.

2444
03:20:34,600 --> 03:20:37,600
Well, we seem to...

2445
03:20:37,600 --> 03:20:42,600
Would it be possible to try out a little bit some things here?

2446
03:20:42,600 --> 03:20:48,600
We started off talking about these pretty rice maps.

2447
03:20:48,600 --> 03:20:52,600
Be they fakes, Lester, I believe, things or not.

2448
03:20:52,600 --> 03:20:56,600
Sir, you said something in your article about the buried city of Ponaise.

2449
03:20:56,600 --> 03:20:57,600
What is that?

2450
03:20:57,600 --> 03:20:58,600
Ponaise?

2451
03:20:58,600 --> 03:20:59,600
I've never heard of it.

2452
03:20:59,600 --> 03:21:02,600
Ponaise is an island 1000 miles away.

2453
03:21:02,600 --> 03:21:05,600
I was in the specification.

2454
03:21:05,600 --> 03:21:07,600
I have been there when I was a kid.

2455
03:21:07,600 --> 03:21:11,600
Same presses. There are wonderful buildings.

2456
03:21:11,600 --> 03:21:16,600
You can't just say the building is a phony and they're buried. You can see them and you can touch them.

2457
03:21:16,600 --> 03:21:18,600
Quite a lot of them are under the water.

2458
03:21:18,600 --> 03:21:23,600
They are made of a most gigantic block of sterum that perfectly trims.

2459
03:21:23,600 --> 03:21:26,600
And you're in this old business, you can't put a 10-knife between the thing that is no mortar.

2460
03:21:26,600 --> 03:21:29,600
That is literally true in Ponaise.

2461
03:21:29,600 --> 03:21:31,600
And they go on and on.

2462
03:21:31,600 --> 03:21:37,600
It's literally miles of these things and the most complicated, docks and everything.

2463
03:21:37,600 --> 03:21:42,600
Now, just that it's possible to be logical and stay in age for a moment.

2464
03:21:42,600 --> 03:21:48,600
That stone that they have built doesn't exist on that island.

2465
03:21:48,600 --> 03:21:52,600
It's got to come from somewhere else.

2466
03:21:52,600 --> 03:21:54,600
And it must have been brought there.

2467
03:21:54,600 --> 03:21:57,600
Or it must have been a very large land area at that time.

2468
03:21:57,600 --> 03:22:00,600
But quite apart from that, people must have built it.

2469
03:22:00,600 --> 03:22:02,600
And it took obviously quite a lot of people.

2470
03:22:02,600 --> 03:22:04,600
But people have to have food.

2471
03:22:04,600 --> 03:22:09,600
And you've got to feed a large population to maintain a large city like that.

2472
03:22:09,600 --> 03:22:12,600
Where did they grow their food?

2473
03:22:12,600 --> 03:22:14,600
It's all under the ocean now.

2474
03:22:14,600 --> 03:22:20,600
Alright, maybe that's if the crust will slip from the earth or into a viewing and have food and the rest of them is true.

2475
03:22:20,600 --> 03:22:26,600
It is possible that quite a short time ago there was a very large land area there.

2476
03:22:26,600 --> 03:22:33,600
There's a whole civilization and it must have been a fairly good one because Dillion's Stone is a little event.

2477
03:22:33,600 --> 03:22:35,600
And it is one of the buildings.

2478
03:22:35,600 --> 03:22:38,600
Must have existed there but which we know absolutely nothing.

2479
03:22:38,600 --> 03:22:40,600
It's gone.

2480
03:22:40,600 --> 03:22:42,600
There's nothing left except for the ocean.

2481
03:22:42,600 --> 03:22:45,600
It's just a panopio and there it is right out in the middle of the ocean.

2482
03:22:45,600 --> 03:22:47,600
What does the artificial look like?

2483
03:22:47,600 --> 03:22:51,600
It looks extraordinary there, I'm afraid, like Cusco in a way.

2484
03:22:51,600 --> 03:22:54,600
It's very blocky and very...

2485
03:22:55,600 --> 03:22:59,600
Tijuana Co. is even more complicated.

2486
03:22:59,600 --> 03:23:05,600
Tijuana Co. is really a problem because there it is nearly two miles high up in the air.

2487
03:23:05,600 --> 03:23:08,600
It's on Lake Kittitaka or alright.

2488
03:23:08,600 --> 03:23:16,600
What kind of shipping could require a dock or number of docks big enough to take a thing about half the size of Queen Mary?

2489
03:23:16,600 --> 03:23:23,600
And then they have found in Tijuana Co. they have found meat holes bored into some of these blocks

2490
03:23:23,600 --> 03:23:29,600
which are bored by a kind of shellfish called Pohas, P-H-O-L-A-S, or Pallado Myer,

2491
03:23:29,600 --> 03:23:31,600
one of that group, they're very well known.

2492
03:23:31,600 --> 03:23:34,600
They've drilled beautiful meat holes right through granite.

2493
03:23:34,600 --> 03:23:36,600
And we know how the dickies do it in the past.

2494
03:23:36,600 --> 03:23:39,600
They do have a raft that one in but they put out something.

2495
03:23:39,600 --> 03:23:40,600
And there's a marine shell.

2496
03:23:40,600 --> 03:23:42,600
There are no freshwater ones known.

2497
03:23:42,600 --> 03:23:48,600
So it looks as if after Tijuana Co. was built, it went under the Pacific or at least in the air,

2498
03:23:48,600 --> 03:23:52,600
for enough time for these boring shells to bore holes in them.

2499
03:23:52,600 --> 03:23:57,600
And it's been elevated up two miles in Mexico.

2500
03:23:57,600 --> 03:23:58,600
No, in Peru.

2501
03:23:58,600 --> 03:24:00,600
In Tititaka.

2502
03:24:00,600 --> 03:24:06,600
Alright, in other words, monumental earth movements including the building of the entire Andes

2503
03:24:06,600 --> 03:24:09,600
must have taken place after a thumb civilization

2504
03:24:09,600 --> 03:24:14,600
and got to a point where it could build in stone in a very advanced form.

2505
03:24:14,600 --> 03:24:17,600
And it do have to do with NACO.

2506
03:24:17,600 --> 03:24:20,600
Did you know that the pegs that some of the stones are put together with

2507
03:24:20,600 --> 03:24:23,600
were made of solid silver and they weighed half a ton?

2508
03:24:23,600 --> 03:24:25,600
It's one of the reasons why the Spanish tore the whole thing apart.

2509
03:24:25,600 --> 03:24:34,600
If you really want to get an eyesight check, read the heart into a half Spanish priest

2510
03:24:34,600 --> 03:24:38,600
who wrote in the early days, oh dear, somebody I hope will be able to tell me.

2511
03:24:38,600 --> 03:24:40,600
Anyhow, it makes fascinating reading.

2512
03:24:40,600 --> 03:24:42,600
The Spaniards, when there are enough of them there,

2513
03:24:42,600 --> 03:24:47,600
they went down and somebody noticed that this metal was holding the stones together

2514
03:24:47,600 --> 03:24:50,600
and certain archies and so on and it finally was stood.

2515
03:24:50,600 --> 03:24:52,600
And so of course they tore the whole thing apart.

2516
03:24:52,600 --> 03:24:55,600
But the early descriptions, first of all, these wonderful statues and things

2517
03:24:55,600 --> 03:24:57,600
which have all been bust and thrown around now.

2518
03:24:57,600 --> 03:24:58,600
So there's that.

2519
03:24:58,600 --> 03:24:59,600
And then there's the Panache.

2520
03:24:59,600 --> 03:25:02,600
And then may I ask, let my good friend, let's ask you two questions.

2521
03:25:02,600 --> 03:25:06,600
Did you saw a dead moose on Route 46 with your believing?

2522
03:25:06,600 --> 03:25:11,600
Well, if I examined it, if I could smell it and feel it and touch it,

2523
03:25:11,600 --> 03:25:15,600
I would certainly believe that it was a dead moose and I know what a moose is fortunately.

2524
03:25:15,600 --> 03:25:16,600
Right. Point number two.

2525
03:25:16,600 --> 03:25:18,600
I wouldn't be surprised.

2526
03:25:18,600 --> 03:25:19,600
It wouldn't be bad.

2527
03:25:19,600 --> 03:25:20,600
Not particularly.

2528
03:25:20,600 --> 03:25:22,600
You know, I know people keep saying a moose.

2529
03:25:22,600 --> 03:25:23,600
Not at all.

2530
03:25:23,600 --> 03:25:25,600
A hundred come down from the most country.

2531
03:25:25,600 --> 03:25:26,600
I've seen the way they...

2532
03:25:26,600 --> 03:25:30,600
I have seen the way they strapped beer and other things onto their cars

2533
03:25:30,600 --> 03:25:32,600
and they said, if anything happened...

2534
03:25:32,600 --> 03:25:33,600
Good. I like that.

2535
03:25:33,600 --> 03:25:36,600
I've seen a cow incidentally lying in the middle of Route 46,

2536
03:25:36,600 --> 03:25:40,600
but on the middle of Route 35, which is somewhat surprising.

2537
03:25:40,600 --> 03:25:42,600
Nobody apparently stopped to investigate the car.

2538
03:25:42,600 --> 03:25:43,600
It's just being run by.

2539
03:25:43,600 --> 03:25:50,600
I know of Game Warden who stopped some gentlemen from, let's say, from greater New York

2540
03:25:50,600 --> 03:25:52,600
who were proudly driving back.

2541
03:25:52,600 --> 03:25:54,600
They had their gun licenses and their hunting license,

2542
03:25:54,600 --> 03:25:56,600
and they had a cow's fat they were applying.

2543
03:25:56,600 --> 03:25:58,600
They thought it was a deer.

2544
03:25:58,600 --> 03:25:59,600
It seems to me like a fox.

2545
03:25:59,600 --> 03:26:00,600
It's long as they killed it.

2546
03:26:00,600 --> 03:26:02,600
They might as well use it.

2547
03:26:02,600 --> 03:26:04,600
That's being not suspicious for a moment.

2548
03:26:04,600 --> 03:26:09,600
Would you feel that the Royal Society of England is a pretty solid organization

2549
03:26:09,600 --> 03:26:11,600
and infamous point of view of...

2550
03:26:11,600 --> 03:26:12,600
...San?

2551
03:26:12,600 --> 03:26:13,600
Generally so.

2552
03:26:13,600 --> 03:26:16,600
Have you ever heard of a man called Sir David Brewster?

2553
03:26:16,600 --> 03:26:18,600
Well, I don't place him.

2554
03:26:18,600 --> 03:26:19,600
Well, let me tell you.

2555
03:26:19,600 --> 03:26:21,600
He was president of the Royal Society of London

2556
03:26:21,600 --> 03:26:24,600
around about 1865,

2557
03:26:24,600 --> 03:26:26,600
two years before he was there after.

2558
03:26:26,600 --> 03:26:28,600
Are you going to tell me he was a little man?

2559
03:26:28,600 --> 03:26:29,600
No, I'm not going to tell you that,

2560
03:26:29,600 --> 03:26:32,600
but I'm going to ask you to come down to the public library with me sometime,

2561
03:26:32,600 --> 03:26:34,600
and we'll get out to the Stevens of the Royal Society of London.

2562
03:26:34,600 --> 03:26:39,600
And you shall read an address given to an opening meeting on an address.

2563
03:26:39,600 --> 03:26:40,600
Yeah.

2564
03:26:40,600 --> 03:26:41,600
Well, that can be very interesting.

2565
03:26:41,600 --> 03:26:42,600
Not an address.

2566
03:26:42,600 --> 03:26:43,600
No, wait a minute.

2567
03:26:43,600 --> 03:26:44,600
An address.

2568
03:26:44,600 --> 03:26:45,600
All right.

2569
03:26:45,600 --> 03:26:46,600
Wait a minute.

2570
03:26:46,600 --> 03:26:47,600
I'm going to tell you I'm not here anyhow.

2571
03:26:47,600 --> 03:26:48,600
All right.

2572
03:26:48,600 --> 03:26:49,600
All right.

2573
03:26:49,600 --> 03:26:53,600
In this address, it states categorically that a number of flat-headed steel nails

2574
03:26:53,600 --> 03:26:55,600
had been taken out of a block,

2575
03:26:55,600 --> 03:26:57,600
or a little limestone, if you know what that is,

2576
03:26:57,600 --> 03:26:59,600
it's laid down in the Cretaceous period.

2577
03:26:59,600 --> 03:27:03,600
In an open-cut quarry, which is nearly 600 foot deep,

2578
03:27:03,600 --> 03:27:05,600
that quarry had been quarried since Roman times.

2579
03:27:05,600 --> 03:27:07,600
The strata are absolutely undisturbed.

2580
03:27:07,600 --> 03:27:09,600
They're horizontal strata.

2581
03:27:09,600 --> 03:27:10,600
It's in Yorkshire.

2582
03:27:10,600 --> 03:27:12,600
And they'd gone down and gone down,

2583
03:27:12,600 --> 03:27:14,600
and you know how they cut, how they cut stone.

2584
03:27:14,600 --> 03:27:15,600
They cut out a huge block,

2585
03:27:15,600 --> 03:27:17,600
and then they'd drive wedges into it a little bit,

2586
03:27:17,600 --> 03:27:18,600
and leave it overnight,

2587
03:27:18,600 --> 03:27:20,600
and it'd spits itself in the morning.

2588
03:27:20,600 --> 03:27:21,600
And when they came,

2589
03:27:21,600 --> 03:27:22,600
you don't have to drive the wedge,

2590
03:27:22,600 --> 03:27:24,600
you leave it, and it just gives you the pressure,

2591
03:27:24,600 --> 03:27:26,600
you know, being up there, you know, all about those things.

2592
03:27:26,600 --> 03:27:28,600
Yeah, there's no more certain-able spreading.

2593
03:27:28,600 --> 03:27:30,600
Well, not even if it isn't any moisture.

2594
03:27:30,600 --> 03:27:32,600
If you put a wedge into a block of stone,

2595
03:27:32,600 --> 03:27:33,600
because stone wedges...

2596
03:27:33,600 --> 03:27:34,600
You mean metal wedge?

2597
03:27:34,600 --> 03:27:35,600
Or a wedge, or wooden wedge,

2598
03:27:35,600 --> 03:27:37,600
and the old days used to use wooden wedges.

2599
03:27:37,600 --> 03:27:39,600
You cut a little cut into the side of a block of stone,

2600
03:27:39,600 --> 03:27:40,600
weighing 10 tons,

2601
03:27:40,600 --> 03:27:42,600
and you drive quite a small wedge,

2602
03:27:42,600 --> 03:27:43,600
18 inches into it.

2603
03:27:43,600 --> 03:27:45,600
You don't have to split the stone.

2604
03:27:45,600 --> 03:27:46,600
You drive it in real tight,

2605
03:27:46,600 --> 03:27:47,600
and leave it overnight,

2606
03:27:47,600 --> 03:27:50,600
and the stone will spit itself in the morning.

2607
03:27:50,600 --> 03:27:51,600
And it's spitted out.

2608
03:27:51,600 --> 03:27:54,600
And when one of these blocks of stone was split open,

2609
03:27:54,600 --> 03:27:57,600
in the presence of perfectly reliable persons

2610
03:27:57,600 --> 03:27:59,600
who've managed and ran the quarry,

2611
03:27:59,600 --> 03:28:02,600
it opened up, and here were a number of flat-headed,

2612
03:28:02,600 --> 03:28:04,600
steel nails with square points,

2613
03:28:04,600 --> 03:28:05,600
and just like we have,

2614
03:28:05,600 --> 03:28:07,600
put a little bit of rust around them

2615
03:28:07,600 --> 03:28:09,600
in the middle of a block of Olythia glumstone.

2616
03:28:09,600 --> 03:28:11,600
Now, that Olythia glumstone,

2617
03:28:11,600 --> 03:28:13,600
we know from the fossil that we've resumed,

2618
03:28:13,600 --> 03:28:17,600
was laid down 70 to 80 million years ago.

2619
03:28:17,600 --> 03:28:18,600
I'm asking...

2620
03:28:18,600 --> 03:28:21,600
This is the same as Panaphi and Tria Honaco,

2621
03:28:21,600 --> 03:28:23,600
and all these things we think we know.

2622
03:28:23,600 --> 03:28:24,600
We've got a nice time scale.

2623
03:28:24,600 --> 03:28:26,600
Everything is very orderly.

2624
03:28:26,600 --> 03:28:28,600
Then how do you explain steel nails

2625
03:28:28,600 --> 03:28:31,600
in the Cretaceous period, 80 million years ago?

2626
03:28:31,600 --> 03:28:33,600
Were they teleported into the middle of that block?

2627
03:28:33,600 --> 03:28:35,600
You can't drop them into solids.

2628
03:28:35,600 --> 03:28:36,600
You've got to get them in there somehow.

2629
03:28:36,600 --> 03:28:39,600
You'd say, of course, they weren't there in the first place.

2630
03:28:39,600 --> 03:28:40,600
I think we've not been established

2631
03:28:40,600 --> 03:28:41,600
in my status right until now.

2632
03:28:41,600 --> 03:28:42,600
No, but you wouldn't even...

2633
03:28:42,600 --> 03:28:43,600
...be ready to put David Bruce in the water.

2634
03:28:43,600 --> 03:28:44,600
No, wait a second.

2635
03:28:44,600 --> 03:28:45,600
No, no, no.

2636
03:28:45,600 --> 03:28:47,600
No, not necessarily.

2637
03:28:47,600 --> 03:28:49,600
I would not necessarily believe in him.

2638
03:28:49,600 --> 03:28:51,600
I would want him to be able to furnish evidence to others.

2639
03:28:51,600 --> 03:28:53,600
He did. He furnished it to the satisfaction of the world.

2640
03:28:53,600 --> 03:28:55,600
He started learning it right in the proceedings

2641
03:28:55,600 --> 03:28:56,600
of the world.

2642
03:28:56,600 --> 03:28:58,600
Well, that's a little different from saying

2643
03:28:58,600 --> 03:29:00,600
that I wouldn't believe in him.

2644
03:29:00,600 --> 03:29:03,600
I might be willing to believe in a careful investigation

2645
03:29:03,600 --> 03:29:05,600
by a number of people.

2646
03:29:05,600 --> 03:29:07,600
When there was sufficient evidence for them

2647
03:29:07,600 --> 03:29:09,600
to be absolutely sure that those nails

2648
03:29:09,600 --> 03:29:12,600
could not have been dropped in any way.

2649
03:29:12,600 --> 03:29:13,600
Now, there are ways...

2650
03:29:13,600 --> 03:29:16,600
I would drop a nail into a block of sand with stone.

2651
03:29:16,600 --> 03:29:19,600
I would guarantee to perform the feat to your satisfaction.

2652
03:29:19,600 --> 03:29:21,600
I would like to perform it to the satisfaction of experts

2653
03:29:21,600 --> 03:29:22,600
is another matter.

2654
03:29:22,600 --> 03:29:24,600
What would you do?

2655
03:29:24,600 --> 03:29:27,600
It is possible to flick your stone a little ahead of time

2656
03:29:27,600 --> 03:29:29,600
and then to lose the opening there.

2657
03:29:29,600 --> 03:29:30,600
Drop your nails down.

2658
03:29:30,600 --> 03:29:32,600
They will gradually work down.

2659
03:29:32,600 --> 03:29:34,600
And then the block will move in the sunlight and so on

2660
03:29:34,600 --> 03:29:36,600
enough to make it seem that they were in there.

2661
03:29:36,600 --> 03:29:38,600
Then put your wedges in and claim that this is a later

2662
03:29:38,600 --> 03:29:40,600
wake-off and it works.

2663
03:29:40,600 --> 03:29:41,600
It is entirely possible.

2664
03:29:41,600 --> 03:29:42,600
They said they were impeded.

2665
03:29:42,600 --> 03:29:43,600
They were impeded.

2666
03:29:43,600 --> 03:29:44,600
They were impeded.

2667
03:29:44,600 --> 03:29:45,600
That is what I want.

2668
03:29:45,600 --> 03:29:50,600
In time, look, a stone expands in the sunlight

2669
03:29:50,600 --> 03:29:52,600
just exactly the way others do it.

2670
03:29:52,600 --> 03:29:53,600
Slightly, but it does.

2671
03:29:53,600 --> 03:29:54,600
Now we are relaxed.

2672
03:29:54,600 --> 03:29:56,600
600 foot down.

2673
03:29:56,600 --> 03:29:58,600
Wait, this was not 600 foot down.

2674
03:29:58,600 --> 03:29:59,600
They were standing open.

2675
03:29:59,600 --> 03:30:00,600
No, sir.

2676
03:30:00,600 --> 03:30:04,600
The block of limestone was taken out and was played.

2677
03:30:04,600 --> 03:30:06,600
And then in their presence,

2678
03:30:06,600 --> 03:30:10,600
just taken out of an unconformable limestone.

2679
03:30:10,600 --> 03:30:11,600
Conformable limestone.

2680
03:30:11,600 --> 03:30:12,600
Wait a minute.

2681
03:30:12,600 --> 03:30:15,600
They were in his presence or in the presence of the older?

2682
03:30:15,600 --> 03:30:17,600
The presence of the manager according to the statement.

2683
03:30:17,600 --> 03:30:19,600
Well, the manager I am not interested in.

2684
03:30:19,600 --> 03:30:21,600
I am interested in being a observer.

2685
03:30:21,600 --> 03:30:23,600
I am interested in being a observer.

2686
03:30:23,600 --> 03:30:25,600
Because a manager and a manager are quarreling for

2687
03:30:25,600 --> 03:30:28,600
the downside better-swinged observer than some

2688
03:30:28,600 --> 03:30:30,600
scientist sitting out on a chair down in London.

2689
03:30:30,600 --> 03:30:32,600
Not as well as what the rockers in Tampa were.

2690
03:30:32,600 --> 03:30:33,600
Not necessarily.

2691
03:30:33,600 --> 03:30:34,600
Yes, sir.

2692
03:30:34,600 --> 03:30:35,600
They were the one people who do know.

2693
03:30:35,600 --> 03:30:36,600
He's a learner who knows how to run.

2694
03:30:36,600 --> 03:30:38,600
Because so many horses have been perpetrated

2695
03:30:38,600 --> 03:30:40,600
on them once, and others have been already.

2696
03:30:40,600 --> 03:30:42,600
They pull our hoax in the bottom of 600 foot

2697
03:30:42,600 --> 03:30:43,600
of early limestone.

2698
03:30:43,600 --> 03:30:44,600
It is not my business.

2699
03:30:44,600 --> 03:30:45,600
They're in big...

2700
03:30:45,600 --> 03:30:46,600
Who wants to pull a hoax?

2701
03:30:46,600 --> 03:30:47,600
There have been hoaxes.

2702
03:30:47,600 --> 03:30:49,600
Who-why did Dawson ever want to pull his hoax?

2703
03:30:49,600 --> 03:30:50,600
I can't understand it.

2704
03:30:50,600 --> 03:30:51,600
Neither do you, I'm sure, Isaac.

2705
03:30:51,600 --> 03:30:53,600
I can understand you very clearly indeed.

2706
03:30:53,600 --> 03:30:55,600
Well, I congratulate you.

2707
03:30:55,600 --> 03:30:56,600
They've been looking for an explanation.

2708
03:30:56,600 --> 03:30:57,600
Why don't you supply us?

2709
03:30:57,600 --> 03:30:59,600
They haven't yet told me about Dawson.

2710
03:30:59,600 --> 03:31:01,600
Well, no, they haven't told you about Dawson.

2711
03:31:01,600 --> 03:31:02,600
Why would Dawson want to be involved in it

2712
03:31:02,600 --> 03:31:03,600
if he wasn't involved?

2713
03:31:03,600 --> 03:31:04,600
Or who-why did anybody do it?

2714
03:31:04,600 --> 03:31:05,600
Nobody came to have an explanation.

2715
03:31:05,600 --> 03:31:06,600
You wanted to have an explanation?

2716
03:31:06,600 --> 03:31:07,600
You wanted to deal with yourself.

2717
03:31:07,600 --> 03:31:11,600
But I wouldn't expect that the manager of a quarry

2718
03:31:11,600 --> 03:31:14,600
would know whether Dawson had been proof-in-law.

2719
03:31:14,600 --> 03:31:16,600
Well, let me make one point clear right now.

2720
03:31:16,600 --> 03:31:20,600
It is not my duty, my obligation, nor am I right even

2721
03:31:20,600 --> 03:31:22,600
to accept anything that is handed to me

2722
03:31:22,600 --> 03:31:25,600
without a tremendous amount of evidence.

2723
03:31:25,600 --> 03:31:28,600
The evidence must be proportional to the fantastic element

2724
03:31:28,600 --> 03:31:30,600
of the thing I do.

2725
03:31:30,600 --> 03:31:32,600
It is not up to me to make up my mind.

2726
03:31:32,600 --> 03:31:34,600
It is up to them to make it up to the people

2727
03:31:34,600 --> 03:31:36,600
propounding the theories to make it up for me

2728
03:31:36,600 --> 03:31:38,600
by the body of the evidence.

2729
03:31:38,600 --> 03:31:41,600
The more fantastic the thing, the greater the evidence must be

2730
03:31:41,600 --> 03:31:44,600
because this is the process which has built the science

2731
03:31:44,600 --> 03:31:46,600
which has made it possible for other people

2732
03:31:46,600 --> 03:31:48,600
to go out and dig up all these things.

2733
03:31:48,600 --> 03:31:53,600
Yes, but what do you believe in, North Reno?

2734
03:31:53,600 --> 03:31:55,600
Yes, they have finally given adequate proof

2735
03:31:55,600 --> 03:31:56,600
from the New York Times.

2736
03:31:56,600 --> 03:31:58,600
Do you think they're pretty fantastic?

2737
03:31:58,600 --> 03:32:01,600
Yes, and I did not necessarily accept them at first.

2738
03:32:01,600 --> 03:32:04,600
What evidence do you base your belief on?

2739
03:32:04,600 --> 03:32:08,600
The evidence of the New Tunis has now been established.

2740
03:32:08,600 --> 03:32:10,600
What evidence?

2741
03:32:10,600 --> 03:32:11,600
What evidence?

2742
03:32:11,600 --> 03:32:13,600
You won't believe it, North Reno.

2743
03:32:13,600 --> 03:32:14,600
No, wait a second.

2744
03:32:14,600 --> 03:32:18,600
You believe in the New Tunis and they're a pretty amazing thing.

2745
03:32:18,600 --> 03:32:20,600
No, wait a second.

2746
03:32:20,600 --> 03:32:24,600
You said the proportion of evidence that you submitted

2747
03:32:24,600 --> 03:32:27,600
is directly proportional to the fantastic nature of the event.

2748
03:32:27,600 --> 03:32:31,600
Now, in North Reno, I think there were the most fantastic things in the world.

2749
03:32:31,600 --> 03:32:33,600
You said you believe in it.

2750
03:32:33,600 --> 03:32:36,600
What is this huge abundance of evidence for North Reno?

2751
03:32:36,600 --> 03:32:37,600
Fair question.

2752
03:32:37,600 --> 03:32:39,600
By the way, I believe in North Reno.

2753
03:32:39,600 --> 03:32:41,600
Fair question.

2754
03:32:41,600 --> 03:32:48,600
The North Reno is a fantastic thing, not as an isolated thing by itself.

2755
03:32:48,600 --> 03:32:52,600
It is fantastic along with the entire fantastic nature of the inside of the atom.

2756
03:32:52,600 --> 03:32:53,600
You will agree with that?

2757
03:32:53,600 --> 03:32:54,600
Yes.

2758
03:32:54,600 --> 03:32:59,600
The evidence for the New Reno is conclusive, not by itself,

2759
03:32:59,600 --> 03:33:03,600
but along with the remarkable amount of evidence that has been dug up

2760
03:33:03,600 --> 03:33:07,600
for the general nature of the inside of the atom, including such things as thin and other things,

2761
03:33:07,600 --> 03:33:08,600
will you agree with that?

2762
03:33:08,600 --> 03:33:13,600
My evidence therefore is proportional to the fantasy of the nature of the flame.

2763
03:33:13,600 --> 03:33:17,600
You mean what was the entire fantastic thing to do because there are a lot of other fantastic things?

2764
03:33:17,600 --> 03:33:18,600
No, you don't accept it.

2765
03:33:18,600 --> 03:33:20,600
Not at all, because the entire phenomenon is trapped.

2766
03:33:21,600 --> 03:33:28,600
Now, this incident to Israel indicates to me that you are incapable of separating one statement from another statement clearly,

2767
03:33:28,600 --> 03:33:33,600
because what I said was not that one fantastic thing was proved by another.

2768
03:33:33,600 --> 03:33:39,600
I said that the proportion of proof to the fantasy was adequate.

2769
03:33:39,600 --> 03:33:46,600
And I also said that in both the cases of the fantastic nature of the proposition and of the proof,

2770
03:33:46,600 --> 03:33:51,600
it involved not the isolated things, but other parts of the atom, too.

2771
03:33:51,600 --> 03:33:52,600
This is extremely fantastic.

2772
03:33:52,600 --> 03:33:57,600
No, they are not equally fantastic after they have been proved step by step.

2773
03:33:57,600 --> 03:33:58,600
She hasn't proved.

2774
03:33:58,600 --> 03:34:00,600
She hasn't proved and stepped on it.

2775
03:34:00,600 --> 03:34:01,600
We manipulate them.

2776
03:34:01,600 --> 03:34:02,600
We keep things within.

2777
03:34:02,600 --> 03:34:11,600
When we manipulate little green men, when we manipulate extraordinary radiations or things beyond the spectrum we know

2778
03:34:11,600 --> 03:34:13,600
and can make them work.

2779
03:34:13,600 --> 03:34:20,600
In other words, when you can modulate telepathy and manipulate it successfully, I will even accept that.

2780
03:34:20,600 --> 03:34:22,600
In biology, you see it doesn't work that way.

2781
03:34:22,600 --> 03:34:23,600
It's the other way around.

2782
03:34:23,600 --> 03:34:24,600
You either have a thing or you don't.

2783
03:34:24,600 --> 03:34:26,600
And when you've got it, you've got to do something about it.

2784
03:34:26,600 --> 03:34:34,600
The biologists so far have not managed to make any major change in man himself, whereas the system is sad.

2785
03:34:34,600 --> 03:34:35,600
What's that got to do with it?

2786
03:34:35,600 --> 03:34:36,600
That's a red arrow.

2787
03:34:36,600 --> 03:34:47,600
I'm saying that biology is necessarily a much more maybe rather than either or science than is physics at the present time.

2788
03:34:47,600 --> 03:34:55,600
Yeah, but let me go back to my old one about the Tati Grader, the animals which are related to the spiders.

2789
03:34:55,600 --> 03:35:01,600
They are alive and they reproduce and they've got very, very complex nerves system.

2790
03:35:01,600 --> 03:35:03,600
They've got eye spots and they're pretty advanced animals.

2791
03:35:03,600 --> 03:35:05,600
They belong to the group the arachnida.

2792
03:35:05,600 --> 03:35:08,600
And you can desiccate those things as long as you like.

2793
03:35:08,600 --> 03:35:10,600
They become entirely crystalline.

2794
03:35:10,600 --> 03:35:13,600
If you're all little crystals, they're all crystallized out.

2795
03:35:13,600 --> 03:35:16,600
And you can keep as long as you like, sterile or instillable conditions.

2796
03:35:16,600 --> 03:35:21,600
And then you've got to put them in water and they swell up and become exactly as they were before.

2797
03:35:21,600 --> 03:35:24,600
Then they start moving around and they continue to reproduce.

2798
03:35:24,600 --> 03:35:30,600
Now, any animal is animate, if it's supposed to be inanimate, we like to call it, for lack of better words, right?

2799
03:35:30,600 --> 03:35:36,600
I know we've got things with other suitable viruses which are animate for one time and inanimate for the rest.

2800
03:35:36,600 --> 03:35:37,600
But still, we draw a line.

2801
03:35:37,600 --> 03:35:41,600
In other words, there is something, whatever you like to call it, a light spirit or something else,

2802
03:35:41,600 --> 03:35:47,600
found it low, unsoundly, whatever you like, look at it, in an animal which makes it different to a pure stone.

2803
03:35:47,600 --> 03:35:51,600
Now, where does that whatever it is go when that animal is desiccated?

2804
03:35:51,600 --> 03:35:53,600
Is it residing the crystals of the animal?

2805
03:35:53,600 --> 03:35:55,600
Is it hovering around its face, waiting to be caught up?

2806
03:35:55,600 --> 03:36:00,600
I mean, you are bringing up something here which I'm afraid is that your science is no good

2807
03:36:00,600 --> 03:36:05,600
because in chemistry, the question between living and non-living was settled a long time ago.

2808
03:36:05,600 --> 03:36:09,600
For a long time, the chemist had this horrible situation.

2809
03:36:09,600 --> 03:36:15,600
He was offering an organic or an inorganic chemistry, a chemical, and they could not settle it.

2810
03:36:15,600 --> 03:36:18,600
And finally, it turned out that it really made no difference.

2811
03:36:18,600 --> 03:36:19,600
It doesn't.

2812
03:36:19,600 --> 03:36:23,600
I have an analogy about something quite different.

2813
03:36:23,600 --> 03:36:27,600
You know what Ivan is doing? He is proud of the fantastic things that exist.

2814
03:36:27,600 --> 03:36:33,600
And he is saying because those fantastic things exist, I must open my mind to things which he has not demonstrated.

2815
03:36:33,600 --> 03:36:35,600
These are demonstrated and proved things.

2816
03:36:35,600 --> 03:36:38,600
Right, that's the essence of science. The examination of the unknown.

2817
03:36:38,600 --> 03:36:40,600
Technology is the examination of the known.

2818
03:36:40,600 --> 03:36:42,600
And you are the only one.

2819
03:36:42,600 --> 03:36:45,600
Wait a second, Ivan. You are saying that it is the examination of the unknown.

2820
03:36:45,600 --> 03:36:52,600
No. No science has ever gained from the examination of the unknown until certain things.

2821
03:36:52,600 --> 03:37:03,600
Certain methods of examining the unknown which could provide control, which could provide careful checks on all human errors and thinking,

2822
03:37:03,600 --> 03:37:10,600
and a number of other things including a very large measure of skepticism and unwillingness to accept more than one step at a time.

2823
03:37:10,600 --> 03:37:11,600
Right.

2824
03:37:11,600 --> 03:37:13,600
It takes much more than just an examination.

2825
03:37:13,600 --> 03:37:16,600
It takes a very careful methodology of examining.

2826
03:37:16,600 --> 03:37:18,600
That's the way I ask these people.

2827
03:37:18,600 --> 03:37:22,600
You give me the methodology, the ability of my students to predict.

2828
03:37:22,600 --> 03:37:27,600
Well, I suggest first of all, let us take any example you like, like little green men.

2829
03:37:27,600 --> 03:37:30,600
Instead of all the people sitting around, I don't like any example.

2830
03:37:30,600 --> 03:37:31,600
I never do.

2831
03:37:31,600 --> 03:37:33,600
Well, little silver men, then.

2832
03:37:33,600 --> 03:37:35,600
Little silver, please. I'll take.

2833
03:37:35,600 --> 03:37:36,600
No, silver men.

2834
03:37:36,600 --> 03:37:37,600
What?

2835
03:37:37,600 --> 03:37:38,600
Humanoid.

2836
03:37:38,600 --> 03:37:40,600
Wait a minute, just let me finish this. I don't want to be impolite.

2837
03:37:40,600 --> 03:37:41,600
I would strongly suggest.

2838
03:37:41,600 --> 03:37:43,600
Oh, I hope so.

2839
03:37:43,600 --> 03:37:45,600
Continue, Ivan.

2840
03:37:45,600 --> 03:37:46,600
I am really impolite.

2841
03:37:46,600 --> 03:37:48,600
I can't hear if you want to.

2842
03:37:48,600 --> 03:37:50,600
No one is...

2843
03:37:50,600 --> 03:37:52,600
No, no, no, I mean, I think it's about...

2844
03:37:52,600 --> 03:37:54,600
No, no, I just...

2845
03:37:54,600 --> 03:37:58,600
I'm carrying out following my train of thought, unless there's a step in that.

2846
03:37:58,600 --> 03:37:59,600
Which train of thought?

2847
03:37:59,600 --> 03:38:00,600
Which track?

2848
03:38:00,600 --> 03:38:03,600
You said you've got to set up a methodology first of all.

2849
03:38:03,600 --> 03:38:09,600
And you suggested I might suggest a methodology for examining one of these unknowns.

2850
03:38:09,600 --> 03:38:13,600
Oh, no, there are methodologies already that have been used by five or six hundred years.

2851
03:38:13,600 --> 03:38:16,600
And what are they used instead of sitting around and saying, can't be...

2852
03:38:16,600 --> 03:38:17,600
Are they angry?

2853
03:38:17,600 --> 03:38:20,600
When an old guy doesn't have a look at Parnati and really trying to find out what is going on...

2854
03:38:20,600 --> 03:38:23,600
Well, you know, recently they went out and took a look at this great Easter Island,

2855
03:38:23,600 --> 03:38:26,600
which had been a mystery for so long, you know, something that didn't turn out to be such a mystery at all, right?

2856
03:38:26,600 --> 03:38:28,600
You found out about this thing worthwhile.

2857
03:38:28,600 --> 03:38:30,600
Why can't they be the same with these other things?

2858
03:38:30,600 --> 03:38:33,600
Instead of sitting around and saying, Michelle, the whole thing is imagination,

2859
03:38:33,600 --> 03:38:35,600
and it's hallucination, and it's all these other...

2860
03:38:35,600 --> 03:38:37,600
I did not say that about you, Michelle.

2861
03:38:37,600 --> 03:38:39,600
No, I'm saying it all other people do.

2862
03:38:39,600 --> 03:38:42,600
Now, that book, if you read that book, those are alleged facts.

2863
03:38:42,600 --> 03:38:43,600
They're statements, you know.

2864
03:38:43,600 --> 03:38:45,600
Certain persons said they saw such and such and such.

2865
03:38:45,600 --> 03:38:47,600
Do you have any alleged facts?

2866
03:38:47,600 --> 03:38:48,600
I think so, yeah.

2867
03:38:48,600 --> 03:38:49,600
How's the allegation of a fact?

2868
03:38:49,600 --> 03:38:50,600
Yeah.

2869
03:38:50,600 --> 03:38:51,600
Oh, no, you've never known a fact.

2870
03:38:51,600 --> 03:38:53,600
It isn't truly a fact, though.

2871
03:38:53,600 --> 03:38:54,600
But the...

2872
03:38:54,600 --> 03:38:55,600
Yeah, a fact.

2873
03:38:55,600 --> 03:38:57,600
But you got caught along, you were frightened of the alleged fact.

2874
03:38:57,600 --> 03:38:58,600
You thought it was different to a fact.

2875
03:38:58,600 --> 03:38:59,600
Yeah.

2876
03:38:59,600 --> 03:39:02,600
But these are a number of allegations, in other words,

2877
03:39:02,600 --> 03:39:04,600
and you're like, such and such persons have seen such and such things.

2878
03:39:04,600 --> 03:39:07,600
There's an awful number of people involved, and I'm partly French,

2879
03:39:07,600 --> 03:39:09,600
and I know the French, and they're pretty solid citizens,

2880
03:39:09,600 --> 03:39:11,600
even when they're away out in the country as presents.

2881
03:39:11,600 --> 03:39:14,600
I don't believe that they're all telling lies or all being hallucinated.

2882
03:39:14,600 --> 03:39:17,600
And I suggest that it's about time that some of these people

2883
03:39:17,600 --> 03:39:22,600
with their high-minded methodologies, both technological and basicly scientific,

2884
03:39:22,600 --> 03:39:25,600
which is quite different, that they might use a little of their time

2885
03:39:25,600 --> 03:39:26,600
to investigate something like this.

2886
03:39:26,600 --> 03:39:28,600
They're saying, get a sitting back and say it's all rubbish.

2887
03:39:28,600 --> 03:39:32,600
Have you read the new book entitled The Eternal Search?

2888
03:39:32,600 --> 03:39:33,600
No.

2889
03:39:33,600 --> 03:39:36,600
Hot Moon is the publisher, and I can't think of the author.

2890
03:39:36,600 --> 03:39:40,600
I'm sorry to say he's a West Coast newspaper man,

2891
03:39:40,600 --> 03:39:41,600
and he wrote this book.

2892
03:39:41,600 --> 03:39:44,600
This is about the history of medicine, what you're doing.

2893
03:39:44,600 --> 03:39:46,600
I'm trying to prove it because something worked once,

2894
03:39:46,600 --> 03:39:47,600
but it should be used.

2895
03:39:47,600 --> 03:39:48,600
What's the website analogy?

2896
03:39:48,600 --> 03:39:54,600
It's a half-baked analogy, half-done, which is a quarter of an analogy.

2897
03:39:54,600 --> 03:39:56,600
If you're going to start all that...

2898
03:39:56,600 --> 03:39:58,600
So, we got a partial analogy, wouldn't it?

2899
03:39:58,600 --> 03:40:01,600
A partial would be a fourth-downs analogy.

2900
03:40:01,600 --> 03:40:03,600
And I haven't even heard one good one yet.

2901
03:40:03,600 --> 03:40:04,600
No.

2902
03:40:04,600 --> 03:40:07,600
If you're going to start with all this stuff,

2903
03:40:07,600 --> 03:40:09,600
just remember this.

2904
03:40:09,600 --> 03:40:14,600
Probably the most important thing in the world to the human animal

2905
03:40:14,600 --> 03:40:17,600
on the face of the earth today is survival after death.

2906
03:40:17,600 --> 03:40:23,600
Ivan, there have been at least 95 million ideas about survival after death.

2907
03:40:23,600 --> 03:40:26,600
Have you examined every single one of them?

2908
03:40:26,600 --> 03:40:28,600
Have you counted them?

2909
03:40:28,600 --> 03:40:29,600
At least one.

2910
03:40:29,600 --> 03:40:31,600
You got closed mind of a subject?

2911
03:40:31,600 --> 03:40:32,600
Not the closed mind.

2912
03:40:32,600 --> 03:40:33,600
I haven't got the time.

2913
03:40:33,600 --> 03:40:34,600
I've got other things to do.

2914
03:40:34,600 --> 03:40:35,600
You haven't got the time, or maybe some of the other people

2915
03:40:35,600 --> 03:40:37,600
haven't got time for all these kinds of nonsense either.

2916
03:40:37,600 --> 03:40:39,600
I don't happen to be interested in afterlife.

2917
03:40:39,600 --> 03:40:41,600
In other words, because you have the interest...

2918
03:40:41,600 --> 03:40:42,600
I think afterlife is nonsense.

2919
03:40:42,600 --> 03:40:44,600
You're interested in this, so everybody should be interested in it.

2920
03:40:44,600 --> 03:40:46,600
But a lot of people are interested in afterlife, and you are interested in it.

2921
03:40:46,600 --> 03:40:47,600
So that's all right.

2922
03:40:47,600 --> 03:40:48,600
You can turn it over.

2923
03:40:48,600 --> 03:40:49,600
No, no, no, no, no.

2924
03:40:49,600 --> 03:40:52,600
I'm afraid that you're taking two sides of the same idea, Ivan.

2925
03:40:52,600 --> 03:40:54,600
You were saying it was all right not to examine it,

2926
03:40:54,600 --> 03:40:55,600
but people should examine it.

2927
03:40:55,600 --> 03:40:56,600
Which do you mean?

2928
03:40:56,600 --> 03:41:00,600
The people who are interested in flying photos should examine it.

2929
03:41:00,600 --> 03:41:01,600
All right, then leave it to them.

2930
03:41:01,600 --> 03:41:03,600
Why do they insist that others will examine it?

2931
03:41:03,600 --> 03:41:05,600
You're referring to Michelle's book?

2932
03:41:05,600 --> 03:41:06,600
Anything in this subject.

2933
03:41:06,600 --> 03:41:07,600
All right.

2934
03:41:07,600 --> 03:41:10,600
You're not interested in that.

2935
03:41:10,600 --> 03:41:11,600
No, I'm not interested in it.

2936
03:41:11,600 --> 03:41:12,600
It is about...

2937
03:41:12,600 --> 03:41:13,600
Wait, wait, wait.

2938
03:41:13,600 --> 03:41:14,600
I just want to hear this now.

2939
03:41:14,600 --> 03:41:19,600
I know that I said, are you recommending that they should examine Michelle's book or everything?

2940
03:41:19,600 --> 03:41:20,600
No.

2941
03:41:20,600 --> 03:41:22,600
Let me put it this way.

2942
03:41:22,600 --> 03:41:25,600
The whole flying photo thing, what it's called, that, you apologize.

2943
03:41:25,600 --> 03:41:26,600
Right.

2944
03:41:26,600 --> 03:41:27,600
Something that happened in the sky.

2945
03:41:27,600 --> 03:41:28,600
Right.

2946
03:41:28,600 --> 03:41:32,600
There's a certain number of method or of technologies which are confirmed with the sky if you want

2947
03:41:32,600 --> 03:41:33,600
to know more about it.

2948
03:41:33,600 --> 03:41:38,600
But a certain science is meteorology, there's astronomy to a certain extent, the chemistry

2949
03:41:38,600 --> 03:41:40,600
to a limited extent interested.

2950
03:41:40,600 --> 03:41:44,600
The zoologist should be because we get a certain number of insects and stuff in the sky.

2951
03:41:44,600 --> 03:41:51,600
Now, the persons who are concerned with the chemistry of the sky or the meteorology of

2952
03:41:51,600 --> 03:41:57,600
the sky, climatology, they should be forced to read anything like this.

2953
03:41:57,600 --> 03:41:58,600
If it's...

2954
03:41:58,600 --> 03:41:59,600
Read it at least.

2955
03:41:59,600 --> 03:42:00,600
And if it's rubb...

2956
03:42:00,600 --> 03:42:01,600
I think it's rubbys, throw it out.

2957
03:42:01,600 --> 03:42:05,600
On the other hand, there are things in that book which are irrefutable.

2958
03:42:05,600 --> 03:42:08,600
They're there and something's got to be done about them.

2959
03:42:08,600 --> 03:42:12,600
It's no good, the specialists in the sky think they're saying, oh, a lot of crap-potism.

2960
03:42:12,600 --> 03:42:14,600
We haven't got time to do stuff like that.

2961
03:42:14,600 --> 03:42:15,600
And just ignoring it.

2962
03:42:15,600 --> 03:42:17,600
Then let me ask you this question, Ivan.

2963
03:42:17,600 --> 03:42:19,600
The people who are concerned should be interested.

2964
03:42:19,600 --> 03:42:21,600
Then let me ask you this.

2965
03:42:21,600 --> 03:42:23,600
And this is an old question.

2966
03:42:23,600 --> 03:42:28,600
And of course, Mr. Mabin and Mr. Blocher, they are not here today.

2967
03:42:28,600 --> 03:42:29,600
And I don't think that...

2968
03:42:29,600 --> 03:42:32,600
Well, I think I can ask Isabel the question.

2969
03:42:32,600 --> 03:42:33,600
But I'll ask you instead.

2970
03:42:33,600 --> 03:42:38,600
Because you're recommending that everybody who's interested in saucers should read and

2971
03:42:38,600 --> 03:42:40,600
investigate things.

2972
03:42:40,600 --> 03:42:52,600
Why haven't Isabel and Blocher and Mabin investigated Howard Mender?

2973
03:42:52,600 --> 03:42:53,600
They have.

2974
03:42:53,600 --> 03:42:54,600
They have.

2975
03:42:54,600 --> 03:42:55,600
Very expensive.

2976
03:42:55,600 --> 03:42:56,600
And I want to get on that sometime along the line.

2977
03:42:56,600 --> 03:42:57,600
Mr. Mabin and Blocher.

2978
03:42:57,600 --> 03:42:58,600
Mr. Mabin and Blocher.

2979
03:42:58,600 --> 03:43:01,600
This is certainly something that's happened recently because of fire in this day.

2980
03:43:01,600 --> 03:43:02,600
They said they didn't want to bother.

2981
03:43:02,600 --> 03:43:04,600
I've had these two men on the show.

2982
03:43:04,600 --> 03:43:05,600
And they said to me, it's ridiculous.

2983
03:43:05,600 --> 03:43:06,600
They didn't have to bother.

2984
03:43:06,600 --> 03:43:08,600
I'm talking about Mabin and Blocher.

2985
03:43:08,600 --> 03:43:11,600
Those two are not particularly interested in that aspect of the thing.

2986
03:43:11,600 --> 03:43:14,600
Isabel has been more interested in written on the subject.

2987
03:43:14,600 --> 03:43:16,600
I have been profoundly interested in it.

2988
03:43:16,600 --> 03:43:20,600
Ivan, if a man isn't interested in a subject, but is a zoologist or anything else, he should

2989
03:43:20,600 --> 03:43:22,600
be compelled to read this book on flying saucers.

2990
03:43:22,600 --> 03:43:27,600
But if he's a living being who is necessarily interested in life after death, and which many

2991
03:43:27,600 --> 03:43:31,600
people are, then it's all right for him not to investigate that.

2992
03:43:31,600 --> 03:43:34,600
Probably the fundamental problem that faces the human and the animal.

2993
03:43:34,600 --> 03:43:35,600
That's all right.

2994
03:43:35,600 --> 03:43:37,600
He can turn his nose up at that.

2995
03:43:37,600 --> 03:43:41,600
Or if he's not interested in one aspect of flying saucers, but he doesn't think he's

2996
03:43:41,600 --> 03:43:44,600
flying saucers, it's all right for him to say, well, I'm not interested in it.

2997
03:43:44,600 --> 03:43:48,600
Nevertheless, a scientist should be compelled to read something out of the field.

2998
03:43:48,600 --> 03:43:49,600
Absolutely right.

2999
03:43:49,600 --> 03:43:50,600
Just like what's the matter with this country now?

3000
03:43:50,600 --> 03:43:52,600
It's just as if there's much to be desired.

3001
03:43:52,600 --> 03:43:54,600
May I say something?

3002
03:43:54,600 --> 03:43:59,600
Here we are fighting communism, and we won't even allow in the schools that people may

3003
03:43:59,600 --> 03:44:01,600
be taught a course in what communism really is.

3004
03:44:01,600 --> 03:44:03,600
They're all going around shooting their mouths off.

3005
03:44:03,600 --> 03:44:04,600
They're all going around shooting their mouths off.

3006
03:44:04,600 --> 03:44:08,600
They don't really know either the dangers of it or even what that wretched old creature

3007
03:44:08,600 --> 03:44:10,600
of Karl Marx said he was all wrong.

3008
03:44:10,600 --> 03:44:12,600
Is this a right hearing across the argument?

3009
03:44:12,600 --> 03:44:13,600
No, it is not.

3010
03:44:13,600 --> 03:44:16,600
I'm just saying that if a scientist says he's a scientist and a speciality in meteorology,

3011
03:44:16,600 --> 03:44:18,600
he ought to read everything and then dinges upon it.

3012
03:44:18,600 --> 03:44:21,600
And if he's a human being, he ought to read everything and then dinges upon life, including

3013
03:44:21,600 --> 03:44:22,600
survival afterlife.

3014
03:44:22,600 --> 03:44:25,600
I'm not interested in human beings.

3015
03:44:25,600 --> 03:44:27,600
To me, I'm just an advanced kind of analyst.

3016
03:44:27,600 --> 03:44:29,600
You are a biologist, not interested in human beings.

3017
03:44:29,600 --> 03:44:31,600
Only as a kind of primate, that's all.

3018
03:44:31,600 --> 03:44:33,600
Well, as a kind of primate.

3019
03:44:33,600 --> 03:44:36,600
And when it comes to a lot of stuff about afterlife and all that kind of thing, I know.

3020
03:44:36,600 --> 03:44:39,600
Oh, well, there's a lot of evidence for that, whether you believe it or not.

3021
03:44:39,600 --> 03:44:40,600
You should investigate then.

3022
03:44:40,600 --> 03:44:42,600
Don't close your mind on it.

3023
03:44:42,600 --> 03:44:43,600
I will not close my mind.

3024
03:44:43,600 --> 03:44:47,600
Don't say that one person should have to read a subject because it up-inges on his

3025
03:44:47,600 --> 03:44:50,600
life and then turn around and say that you should not have to read a subject which has

3026
03:44:50,600 --> 03:44:51,600
been written on your life.

3027
03:44:51,600 --> 03:44:52,600
Now, you're a bivaricator.

3028
03:44:52,600 --> 03:44:56,600
Neither be consistent on this subject or else I'll drop the whole thing.

3029
03:44:56,600 --> 03:44:57,600
I am not.

3030
03:44:57,600 --> 03:45:01,600
I have never set myself up to be an expert on anything connected with the afterlife.

3031
03:45:01,600 --> 03:45:03,600
Therefore, I will not indulge in that.

3032
03:45:03,600 --> 03:45:04,600
Except on what people should read.

3033
03:45:04,600 --> 03:45:08,600
But an astronomer sets himself up to know what's in the sky and it's up to him to read

3034
03:45:08,600 --> 03:45:10,600
everything as far as he can.

3035
03:45:10,600 --> 03:45:13,600
There's too much to read in this day and age, but the best he should keep himself informed

3036
03:45:13,600 --> 03:45:14,600
and not turn his back on it.

3037
03:45:14,600 --> 03:45:15,600
It's his speciality.

3038
03:45:15,600 --> 03:45:20,600
Well, I would like to express a significant and thank you, Long John.

3039
03:45:20,600 --> 03:45:23,600
I've been bursting over here.

3040
03:45:23,600 --> 03:45:24,600
That is it.

3041
03:45:24,600 --> 03:45:33,600
If an astronomer says, no, I'm not interested in flying saucers, okay, I will not say he

3042
03:45:33,600 --> 03:45:34,600
has to read it.

3043
03:45:34,600 --> 03:45:36,600
I personally think he should.

3044
03:45:36,600 --> 03:45:41,600
But what I object to is when the astronomer says, I'm not interested, I don't believe,

3045
03:45:41,600 --> 03:45:44,600
and everybody's crazy for prisms.

3046
03:45:44,600 --> 03:45:50,600
And the example that I would like to quote is the one about the French cave paintings.

3047
03:45:50,600 --> 03:45:55,600
I think the first cave to be discovered was in Spain, wasn't it, Aldemara?

3048
03:45:55,600 --> 03:45:56,600
Aldemara.

3049
03:45:56,600 --> 03:46:01,600
And a child, a couple of children, got into the underground cavern here and they came

3050
03:46:01,600 --> 03:46:04,600
back to these reports of these animals.

3051
03:46:04,600 --> 03:46:09,600
Well, the man who owned the property, he owned an old calf, we have some sort of a decayed

3052
03:46:09,600 --> 03:46:13,600
Spanish lord, owned a very nice man, I gather.

3053
03:46:13,600 --> 03:46:17,600
He went down and saw these things and was very much impressed by them.

3054
03:46:17,600 --> 03:46:18,600
Yes, prejudice.

3055
03:46:18,600 --> 03:46:21,600
And he started to publicize them.

3056
03:46:21,600 --> 03:46:25,600
He got one anthropologist to come and look at them and this anthropologist is very much

3057
03:46:25,600 --> 03:46:29,600
interested in when he spoke to a meeting of scientists.

3058
03:46:29,600 --> 03:46:35,600
And they all disbelieved and they said those things can't possibly be as old as you say

3059
03:46:35,600 --> 03:46:36,600
they are.

3060
03:46:36,600 --> 03:46:40,600
They must have, somebody must have snuck in and painted those walls when nobody was looking.

3061
03:46:40,600 --> 03:46:44,600
Even though the child had a hard time getting in, it was still hard to get in the cave but

3062
03:46:44,600 --> 03:46:48,600
they just didn't paint it because the paint was still kind of sticky and, you know, so

3063
03:46:48,600 --> 03:46:49,600
fresh.

3064
03:46:49,600 --> 03:46:54,600
So the man who owned the castle invited a whole shock of these scientists to come and see

3065
03:46:54,600 --> 03:46:55,600
the caves themselves.

3066
03:46:55,600 --> 03:47:01,600
And the great day came and they had a convention, nobody showed up and it was something like

3067
03:47:01,600 --> 03:47:06,600
twenty years before another anthropologist would even come and look at those caves even

3068
03:47:06,600 --> 03:47:11,600
though now, well, so of course those are prehistoric cave paintings.

3069
03:47:11,600 --> 03:47:17,600
But this is the attitude I cannot understand which is that they will express an interest

3070
03:47:17,600 --> 03:47:23,600
and express an opinion about it, a negative opinion before they've been to look at it.

3071
03:47:23,600 --> 03:47:28,600
Now I don't happen to be very much personally interested in life after death and I haven't

3072
03:47:28,600 --> 03:47:31,600
studied it, studied the evidence for survival.

3073
03:47:31,600 --> 03:47:37,600
But I don't sit around and dogmatize one way or another about it because I don't consider

3074
03:47:37,600 --> 03:47:38,600
the non-competent to discuss it.

3075
03:47:38,600 --> 03:47:40,600
I have not studied it.

3076
03:47:40,600 --> 03:47:45,600
But on UFOs, people who have not studied the data, who are not familiar with the reports,

3077
03:47:45,600 --> 03:47:51,600
though they may claim to be familiar with it, will tell you flatly just what something

3078
03:47:51,600 --> 03:47:57,600
somebody saw in France on October 10th, 1954, whether they have ever really read the report

3079
03:47:57,600 --> 03:47:58,600
and studied it or not.

3080
03:47:58,600 --> 03:48:02,600
Let me interrupt for just a moment to take care of a little business here.

3081
03:48:02,600 --> 03:48:07,600
You say that I get a mental picture of a hundred hands looking for a hundred telephones to

3082
03:48:07,600 --> 03:48:08,600
call up what's in them.

3083
03:48:08,600 --> 03:48:10,600
Are there a hundred telephones in Flat Elfie?

3084
03:48:10,600 --> 03:48:17,600
There's a special deal with the AT&T because I happen to like Philadelphia.

3085
03:48:17,600 --> 03:48:19,600
I spend a considerable amount of time there.

3086
03:48:19,600 --> 03:48:23,600
Then my publisher will come up and I love Philadelphia.

3087
03:48:23,600 --> 03:48:24,600
It's becoming a very beautiful...

3088
03:48:24,600 --> 03:48:26,600
You're a publisher in Flat Elfie, aren't you?

3089
03:48:26,600 --> 03:48:27,600
That's right.

3090
03:48:27,600 --> 03:48:29,600
I don't like all these insults at Philadelphia.

3091
03:48:29,600 --> 03:48:30,600
Oh, it's a nice talk.

3092
03:48:30,600 --> 03:48:31,600
Of course it is.

3093
03:48:31,600 --> 03:48:33,600
When were they last...

3094
03:48:33,600 --> 03:48:36,600
All the while... I don't know, several months ago.

3095
03:48:36,600 --> 03:48:37,600
Yeah.

3096
03:48:37,600 --> 03:48:44,600
Significant cases and no one who passes any judgment, either for or against, people, should

3097
03:48:44,600 --> 03:48:46,600
do so and say no words.

3098
03:48:46,600 --> 03:48:48,600
I'll make it quick to cases.

3099
03:48:48,600 --> 03:48:53,600
Now if you don't know those, if I can say to you, what do you say is most important

3100
03:48:53,600 --> 03:48:54,600
very self?

3101
03:48:54,600 --> 03:48:57,600
What do you think we're seeing over Farmington, New Mexico?

3102
03:48:57,600 --> 03:49:01,600
What do you think you were seeing at Great Falls, Montana?

3103
03:49:01,600 --> 03:49:04,600
And the skeptic says, well, I'm not familiar with that case.

3104
03:49:04,600 --> 03:49:09,600
No, no, I'll say he hasn't performed a minimum and I don't say he has to spend a

3105
03:49:09,600 --> 03:49:10,600
lot of time...

3106
03:49:10,600 --> 03:49:18,600
Well, you left out one case that really made it a dent in my skepticism was the Washington

3107
03:49:18,600 --> 03:49:19,600
Rade-Ox Sighting.

3108
03:49:19,600 --> 03:49:20,600
Well, I'll read that.

3109
03:49:20,600 --> 03:49:21,600
Just as that...

3110
03:49:21,600 --> 03:49:22,600
Well, not the time.

3111
03:49:22,600 --> 03:49:25,600
I mean, Rade-Ox got fully a couple of times.

3112
03:49:25,600 --> 03:49:30,600
But aside from the Rade-Ox Sighting, I think in the only time in all of the so-called

3113
03:49:30,600 --> 03:49:37,600
Canaan of the Uphology, is that at the exact same time that you had Rade-Ox Sightings and

3114
03:49:37,600 --> 03:49:45,600
Rade-Ox Blitz, is that a bunch of pursuit pilots in the Interceptor Squadron was directed

3115
03:49:45,600 --> 03:49:50,600
to that quadrant by the Blitz on the Rade-Ox screen.

3116
03:49:50,600 --> 03:49:54,600
They were told to follow this certain pattern and they would meet up with some...

3117
03:49:54,600 --> 03:49:57,600
And they were told to investigate this area of the sky.

3118
03:49:57,600 --> 03:50:03,600
When they got there, the Interceptor pilots, then radioed back, they saw something.

3119
03:50:03,600 --> 03:50:06,600
They were directed by the Rade-Ox Blitz.

3120
03:50:06,600 --> 03:50:11,600
And then on the Rade-Ox screen, the Blitz of the plane came through and you saw the

3121
03:50:11,600 --> 03:50:17,600
Blitz of the plane approaching the so-called Blitz, the Unidentity UFO, whatever it was.

3122
03:50:17,600 --> 03:50:21,600
And then the pursuit pilot would radio that he was following it.

3123
03:50:21,600 --> 03:50:26,600
And you could see on the screen the Blitz being followed by the plane Blitz.

3124
03:50:26,600 --> 03:50:28,600
Then he reported it disappeared.

3125
03:50:28,600 --> 03:50:31,600
At the same time, it disappeared on the Rade-Ox screen.

3126
03:50:31,600 --> 03:50:33,600
And the only thing that was left was the pursuit ship.

3127
03:50:33,600 --> 03:50:37,600
And then they said they were turning around, they were coming back.

3128
03:50:37,600 --> 03:50:40,600
And you could see the Interceptor Blitz coming back.

3129
03:50:40,600 --> 03:50:43,600
And then all of a sudden, the UFO Blitz reappeared.

3130
03:50:43,600 --> 03:50:48,600
And at the same time, the Interceptor pilots radioed, they see them again.

3131
03:50:48,600 --> 03:50:55,600
Now, this to me is at the same time radar observation and visual observation of something that was up there.

3132
03:50:55,600 --> 03:50:59,600
This to me is a very unexplainable thing.

3133
03:50:59,600 --> 03:51:04,600
Then may I say that you haven't had the time or the inclination to read much into the ufological field.

3134
03:51:04,600 --> 03:51:06,600
But I bet you, I'll take a bet on it.

3135
03:51:06,600 --> 03:51:09,600
You can put as much money as you like on the table, up to what I have.

3136
03:51:09,600 --> 03:51:17,600
But Isabel within 24 hours can produce 50 similar identical cases authenticated by the government.

3137
03:51:17,600 --> 03:51:26,600
Why is it that the under secretary for the Department of Defense on the air when Donald Kehoe was on that program,

3138
03:51:26,600 --> 03:51:31,600
there was all that fuss about it being cut off, at the end of the program he was overlooked,

3139
03:51:32,600 --> 03:51:38,600
the hot air gentleman, the mentor, and some other people had had a good evening when they were listened to.

3140
03:51:38,600 --> 03:51:44,600
And the Army man, the Air Force man in uniform was excellent. He stuck to it himself.

3141
03:51:44,600 --> 03:51:51,600
No, there is 1.9 of cases which with all the evidence that we could wish for, we still can't explain it physically.

3142
03:51:51,600 --> 03:51:53,600
During those months.

3143
03:51:53,600 --> 03:51:54,600
Wait a minute.

3144
03:51:54,600 --> 03:51:55,600
Yes, yes.

3145
03:51:55,600 --> 03:51:58,600
You know, he only took 6 months out of 1 year.

3146
03:51:58,600 --> 03:52:05,600
But at the end, everybody overlooked the under secretary of defense who very quickly sat there and terminated the program.

3147
03:52:05,600 --> 03:52:14,600
And he said, well finally he said, and will you all citizens, please pick up your telephone and ring up your nearest air base

3148
03:52:14,600 --> 03:52:18,600
and just tell us what you saw or what you think you saw.

3149
03:52:18,600 --> 03:52:22,600
Now I don't think that an under secretary, and maybe he's only an under secretary, but still,

3150
03:52:22,600 --> 03:52:28,600
I don't think he would say that on the air unless the Air Force was deeply interested in hearing what people do say.

3151
03:52:28,600 --> 03:52:29,600
Well of course it is.

3152
03:52:29,600 --> 03:52:36,600
Well have we not made point that there is a phenomena here according to a great number of people and machines

3153
03:52:36,600 --> 03:52:42,600
who don't have emotions or hallucinations, I hope, that there is a phenomena that is worthwhile investigating.

3154
03:52:42,600 --> 03:52:47,600
Now if you go that far, then I've simply said it in my briefcase which I happen to have with me this evening,

3155
03:52:47,600 --> 03:52:53,600
lying over there, I will give you the simplified basis of what you asked.

3156
03:52:53,600 --> 03:52:57,600
We are trying to put ufology into a scientific framework.

3157
03:52:57,600 --> 03:52:58,600
It's all written out there.

3158
03:52:58,600 --> 03:53:04,600
There's about, yeah, we are going through a straight methodology and you will not have to read every citing.

3159
03:53:04,600 --> 03:53:10,600
You can read in there a certain number of selected pieces which are not altogether cleaned up yet,

3160
03:53:10,600 --> 03:53:17,600
some by you and some by some other people, and you will get an overall picture of what has been said and the authorities

3161
03:53:17,600 --> 03:53:21,600
who have backed it up, people like Tom Boe, Tom Boe, I don't know how to turn to this.

3162
03:53:21,600 --> 03:53:28,600
Tom Boe is in the forefront of the authorities who are cited for almost every periphysical and mystical thing that is brought up.

3163
03:53:28,600 --> 03:53:29,600
Oh, Tom Boe, now.

3164
03:53:29,600 --> 03:53:32,600
Do you believe in psionics? He's mixed up in psionics.

3165
03:53:32,600 --> 03:53:33,600
Oh, no.

3166
03:53:33,600 --> 03:53:34,600
He is.

3167
03:53:34,600 --> 03:53:35,600
Mystical.

3168
03:53:35,600 --> 03:53:38,600
He is mixed up in psionics, a random machine, a number of others.

3169
03:53:38,600 --> 03:53:44,600
But there is something about psionics. There's an effect there which needs investigating on some people.

3170
03:53:44,600 --> 03:53:48,600
Well, he is, you believe in a random machine? Tom Boe is right at the front of that.

3171
03:53:48,600 --> 03:53:58,600
Man, I don't believe or disbelieve in anything, but anything which works or happens or is, which I can put in a bottle and send to a museum.

3172
03:53:58,600 --> 03:54:04,600
I want to darn well know what it is and how it fits into the scheme of things, and that's what I'm interested in.

3173
03:54:04,600 --> 03:54:14,600
How are you going to get any new sciences if you deny the first awkward, unconvincing, non-conforming observations?

3174
03:54:14,600 --> 03:54:15,600
I see.

3175
03:54:15,600 --> 03:54:24,600
The one of the essential things to any science, and I don't think even Ben has newly converted states, is eververted.

3176
03:54:24,600 --> 03:54:32,600
Yes, and you're newly converted states, Ben, because when you think that things can be investigated, a multiple word-like thing can be investigated,

3177
03:54:32,600 --> 03:54:34,600
but the spirits cannot.

3178
03:54:34,600 --> 03:54:36,600
I think things are a very good word.

3179
03:54:36,600 --> 03:54:43,600
Things are a very good word which has absolutely no meaning whatsoever, since it includes ideas, phenomena, every kind of everything else.

3180
03:54:43,600 --> 03:54:45,600
Well, I'm blessed to have been so.

3181
03:54:45,600 --> 03:54:47,600
Now wait, I don't want to get on with it.

3182
03:54:47,600 --> 03:54:49,600
Well, may I get into something else, please?

3183
03:54:49,600 --> 03:54:54,600
May you and I talk really seriously for a minute. We've been banding you about. May I ask you, Krishna?

3184
03:54:54,600 --> 03:54:56,600
All right, you talk really seriously for a while.

3185
03:54:56,600 --> 03:55:01,600
Really seriously. I'm a deep religious person. There's one very basic question.

3186
03:55:01,600 --> 03:55:12,600
Do you believe, or do you feel, and you're entitled to any opinions you like, Lester, that human beings, let us say human beings, human beings, listen to me, Lester,

3187
03:55:12,600 --> 03:55:25,600
human beings or animals on the surface of this earth have been developed here by a natural process of evolution, or do you believe that they are bio-e, i.e., manufactured by another intelligence?

3188
03:55:26,600 --> 03:55:30,600
Since I do not know of any other intelligence.

3189
03:55:30,600 --> 03:55:32,600
You don't believe in the Almighty then?

3190
03:55:32,600 --> 03:55:43,600
Now wait, you said manufactured. I do not think that an Almighty has to use a method of manufacture which keeps us from being an evolutionary product.

3191
03:55:43,600 --> 03:55:47,600
There is no reason why these two concepts must be mutually contradictory.

3192
03:55:47,600 --> 03:55:51,600
They are not. That is the entire point that I'm asking, you know?

3193
03:55:51,600 --> 03:55:52,600
No.

3194
03:55:52,600 --> 03:56:04,600
All right, now, all religions throughout life, throughout history have stated that man and all other animals were created.

3195
03:56:04,600 --> 03:56:11,600
Now, are they created or did they just come about? There is a certain difference there.

3196
03:56:11,600 --> 03:56:14,600
There is, just tell me.

3197
03:56:14,600 --> 03:56:16,600
You are thinking human beings are...

3198
03:56:16,600 --> 03:56:17,600
No, I wouldn't do that.

3199
03:56:17,600 --> 03:56:19,600
You are thinking in two different terms, I think.

3200
03:56:19,600 --> 03:56:31,600
You know, it is much more... I'm a biologist and trained as such, and I'm sorry, but the process of evolution you can see going on, on your eyes, and that was denied for centuries.

3201
03:56:31,600 --> 03:56:38,600
And you remember the great battle between the people after Darwin finally published.

3202
03:56:38,600 --> 03:56:47,600
But I accept the method of ever-increasing complexity by a method of evolution.

3203
03:56:47,600 --> 03:56:50,600
What, whether it's natural reflection or what, I don't know, that's a separate thing.

3204
03:56:50,600 --> 03:57:03,600
But here we have everybody practically in the world, even the person who likes to set themselves aside and call themselves specifically scientists as opposed to, I suppose, those ordinary people, that we were created.

3205
03:57:03,600 --> 03:57:09,600
Now, you can't have it both ways. Either the creation, the world's creation, in which case we are nothing else but bioids.

3206
03:57:09,600 --> 03:57:16,600
If the Almighty or anybody did start the whole thing by the process of evolution or not, we are bioids.

3207
03:57:16,600 --> 03:57:20,600
We are manufactured by thought or by anything else you like.

3208
03:57:20,600 --> 03:57:28,600
Or otherwise, we just came about by mistake. You've got to make up your mind about that fundamental question. That is the basis of all philosophy.

3209
03:57:28,600 --> 03:57:38,600
I deny that categorically at every point you have made Ivan, because you are limiting, you are saying that if there is a creator, he is limited to means that you can perceive.

3210
03:57:38,600 --> 03:57:42,600
And I will not even accept that. But no, wait a minute. This is the creator he created.

3211
03:57:42,600 --> 03:57:45,600
I'll just let you Ivan, please. Will you listen to me?

3212
03:57:45,600 --> 03:57:47,600
I will indeed, yes.

3213
03:57:47,600 --> 03:57:55,600
The start may be a built-in thing, a part of the order of laws of the universe.

3214
03:57:55,600 --> 03:58:03,600
It does not require a direct intercession on the part of the creator after the universe and the universal laws are in operation.

3215
03:58:03,600 --> 03:58:08,600
This is a perfectly feasible method of imagining things to happen.

3216
03:58:08,600 --> 03:58:17,600
This means that you can have your bioids and your evolutionary animals as exactly the same thing.

3217
03:58:17,600 --> 03:58:22,600
Either it can happen, one can happen separately, or the other can happen separately.

3218
03:58:22,600 --> 03:58:24,600
They are all essentially the same thing.

3219
03:58:24,600 --> 03:58:26,600
I get your point.

3220
03:58:26,600 --> 03:58:31,600
In other words, I lean to the theory that there was creation initially.

3221
03:58:31,600 --> 03:58:34,600
The method by which it was done is perfectly separate.

3222
03:58:34,600 --> 03:58:41,600
But that actually makes us creative objects, all living things, living and dead.

3223
03:58:41,600 --> 03:58:44,600
And that is what all religions have believed.

3224
03:58:44,600 --> 03:58:47,600
My father was a well-known Buddhist philosopher.

3225
03:58:47,600 --> 03:58:53,600
He had studied the philosophy of Gautama Buddha and that was his theory that we are all part of the universe.

3226
03:58:53,600 --> 03:58:55,600
Mr. Blocher is listening.

3227
03:58:55,600 --> 03:58:56,600
Yes, he is.

3228
03:58:56,600 --> 03:58:57,600
Mr. Blocher.

3229
03:58:57,600 --> 03:58:59,600
Yes, we have a telegram.

3230
03:58:59,600 --> 03:59:02,600
Do you have anything to do with the translation of the part?

3231
03:59:02,600 --> 03:59:04,600
No, like method.

3232
03:59:04,600 --> 03:59:09,600
Restrictions prevent investigation of every report coming to our attention.

3233
03:59:09,600 --> 03:59:13,600
In LA, local members investigate for CSI when possible.

3234
03:59:13,600 --> 03:59:16,600
Same applies to New Jersey reports.

3235
03:59:16,600 --> 03:59:22,600
For capable CSI members did thorough investigation of men for CSI.

3236
03:59:22,600 --> 03:59:24,600
I am Blocher.

3237
03:59:24,600 --> 03:59:26,600
Mr. Blocher.

3238
03:59:26,600 --> 03:59:41,600
The quality or quantity of evidence sufficient to constitute proof is independent of the fantastic facts sought to be proven.

3239
03:59:41,600 --> 03:59:50,600
In order to reach conclusion, utilize factual evidence and subject it to open expert examination on your program.

3240
03:59:50,600 --> 03:59:57,600
Jerome the Silverstein or Silverstein.

3241
03:59:57,600 --> 04:00:00,600
And we have a couple of other telegrams here.

3242
04:00:00,600 --> 04:00:05,600
Here's one in Latin and very frankly I do not understand it so I'll let you know.

3243
04:00:05,600 --> 04:00:08,600
Long time since I've tried one in Latin but I'll try it.

3244
04:00:08,600 --> 04:00:09,600
What's the color?

3245
04:00:09,600 --> 04:00:11,600
Maccabre.

3246
04:00:11,600 --> 04:00:14,600
Post Canum Stubbous saying release process may obvise.

3247
04:00:14,600 --> 04:00:17,600
With other words after break take a powder.

3248
04:00:17,600 --> 04:00:19,600
Howard Lawrence.

3249
04:00:19,600 --> 04:00:22,600
Well in 15 minutes we will.

3250
04:00:22,600 --> 04:00:24,600
I wonder if somebody would be turning that...

3251
04:00:24,600 --> 04:00:27,600
Oh I see, in other words after break take a powder.

3252
04:00:27,600 --> 04:00:29,600
That's right.

3253
04:00:29,600 --> 04:00:31,600
Translated as part.

3254
04:00:31,600 --> 04:00:33,600
Very nice.

3255
04:00:33,600 --> 04:00:36,600
Believe your program.

3256
04:00:36,600 --> 04:00:44,600
Interesting 40 years ago a figment of my imagination did see little green gremlins.

3257
04:00:44,600 --> 04:00:47,600
We were a figment of my imagination 40 years ago.

3258
04:00:47,600 --> 04:00:49,600
Well that could be, could be.

3259
04:00:49,600 --> 04:00:51,600
Come on, share up.

3260
04:00:51,600 --> 04:00:53,600
Yeah let's see.

3261
04:00:53,600 --> 04:00:55,600
Here's one more.

3262
04:00:55,600 --> 04:00:57,600
You want to read that one?

3263
04:00:57,600 --> 04:01:00,600
It's also from Howard Lawrence of Hackettville.

3264
04:01:00,600 --> 04:01:02,600
Eureka.

3265
04:01:02,600 --> 04:01:05,600
Little man in bottom of my cognac bubble.

3266
04:01:05,600 --> 04:01:07,600
Isabella, the password please.

3267
04:01:07,600 --> 04:01:14,600
I hope that our good friend J. Robert Mantler is listening and I hope that J. Robert Mantler has a pencil in hand

3268
04:01:14,600 --> 04:01:20,600
because I know that J. Robert Mantler or Dave Field will want to take down this name and address.

3269
04:01:20,600 --> 04:01:23,600
The name is John McCoy.

3270
04:01:23,600 --> 04:01:27,600
Capital MC, capital COY.

3271
04:01:27,600 --> 04:01:30,600
Is this a saying or a scene?

3272
04:01:30,600 --> 04:01:32,600
A scene Preps.

3273
04:01:32,600 --> 04:01:34,600
E-S-E-N-E.

3274
04:01:34,600 --> 04:01:36,600
A scene Preps.

3275
04:01:36,600 --> 04:01:39,600
Corpus Christi, Texas.

3276
04:01:39,600 --> 04:01:47,600
I think we should have 3 or 4 of the books entitled,

3277
04:01:47,600 --> 04:01:53,600
You Folds Confidential written by George Hunt, Williamson, and John McCoy.

3278
04:01:53,600 --> 04:01:59,600
We were to send them an air mail, not a special, but just an air mail letter.

3279
04:01:59,600 --> 04:02:02,600
A special will not help, and a post office box.

3280
04:02:02,600 --> 04:02:03,600
What are they going to do?

3281
04:02:03,600 --> 04:02:04,600
Deliver it to the box.

3282
04:02:04,600 --> 04:02:07,600
So, uh, look at this.

3283
04:02:07,600 --> 04:02:13,600
Listen to the wrong gentleman, and receive valuable information free.

3284
04:02:13,600 --> 04:02:18,600
And if J. Robert Mantler has that information, I know by now he is typing out this letter,

3285
04:02:18,600 --> 04:02:26,600
and we'll have an air mail stamp on it so that we will have these books in time to talk with the man who spoke with the queen.

3286
04:02:26,600 --> 04:02:29,600
Well, now that's the large order, but I'd like to reiterate this.

3287
04:02:29,600 --> 04:02:32,600
I mean, I want to say what I want one listener to believe.

3288
04:02:32,600 --> 04:02:34,600
Well, tell us what you believe.

3289
04:02:34,600 --> 04:02:40,600
Well, I simply think that it would be very desirable if people would consider the facts,

3290
04:02:40,600 --> 04:02:47,600
consider the statements in the reports, before they become too dogmatic about them one way or another.

3291
04:02:47,600 --> 04:02:58,600
One person that fascinates me in this whole problem is the resistance to the idea of extraterrestrial visitors.

3292
04:02:58,600 --> 04:03:04,600
It began, of course, with the resistance to the idea of extraterrestrial craft arriving.

3293
04:03:04,600 --> 04:03:11,600
There are many astronomers who say, yes, there are intelligent life in other planets, probably, by the laws of probability.

3294
04:03:11,600 --> 04:03:16,600
Some day, perhaps someday, there'll be one of these things come here.

3295
04:03:16,600 --> 04:03:21,600
But then, to take the next step, and say, perhaps they have already come,

3296
04:03:21,600 --> 04:03:29,600
this encounters a very mysterious type of resistance, which I do not quite understand.

3297
04:03:29,600 --> 04:03:39,600
Why? There is this blocking, this kind of planting of feet, and saying, oh yes, perhaps next week, but not yesterday.

3298
04:03:39,600 --> 04:03:45,600
What happened yesterday? I don't understand this. There's a reason for it.

3299
04:03:45,600 --> 04:03:49,600
Actually, I think the reasons for that are very, very simple.

3300
04:03:49,600 --> 04:03:56,600
If you assume that one tenth of one percent of the sightings are extraterrestrial craft,

3301
04:03:56,600 --> 04:04:02,600
the distance traveled, the energy put out in reaching here,

3302
04:04:02,600 --> 04:04:11,600
would indicate that there must be an absolutely fantastic number of crafts for each of the possible worlds

3303
04:04:11,600 --> 04:04:18,600
in order to concentrate such a large number upon this earth at this time, as I have said repeatedly,

3304
04:04:18,600 --> 04:04:24,600
if one saucer had been seen.

3305
04:04:24,600 --> 04:04:31,600
I might say that, yes, the probabilities are against it, but nevertheless, from all the worlds out there

3306
04:04:31,600 --> 04:04:34,600
and given enough time, one of them might reach us.

3307
04:04:34,600 --> 04:04:39,600
But to have them dropping in regularly, as this was for a village store,

3308
04:04:39,600 --> 04:04:42,600
and they were simply coming from the outlying districts,

3309
04:04:42,600 --> 04:04:50,600
completely negate all that we have ever learned about the amount of energy required, the distance required,

3310
04:04:50,600 --> 04:04:58,600
the nearest star, remember, which is probably not habitable, is four and a half light years away.

3311
04:04:58,600 --> 04:05:02,600
I'm sure there are stars not habitable at all.

3312
04:05:02,600 --> 04:05:07,600
The solar system, then, if you want to put it that way, solar system.

3313
04:05:07,600 --> 04:05:08,600
I do?

3314
04:05:08,600 --> 04:05:13,600
Solar system is soul, which is actually the sun.

3315
04:05:13,600 --> 04:05:16,600
There is one solar system, the others are solar systems properly.

3316
04:05:16,600 --> 04:05:20,600
Yes, there are solar systems, the system of stars.

3317
04:05:20,600 --> 04:05:23,600
A solar system is a system of stars.

3318
04:05:23,600 --> 04:05:27,600
Many think it is the impoverished time and the future.